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Gill's Commentary on John 19:14 reviewed

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  • Gill's Commentary on John 19:14 reviewed

    The first historic Passovers

    “Observe the Month of Abib keeping passover unto the LORD thy GOD: For in the month of Abib the LORD thy God brought thee forth out of Egypt by night.” Deuteronomy 16:1. “This month shall be unto you the beginning of months unto you, the First Month of the year to you.” Exodus 12:2.

    “In the tenth day of this Month keep-up-(passover)-until [‘mishmehreth’] the fourteenth day” Exodus 12:6a “Forty thousand passed over on That Day…The people came up out of the Jordan on the tenth day of the First Month… On That Day the LORD magnified Joshua in the sight of all Israel; and they feared him…” Joshua 4:13,14,19.
    Ezekiel 40:1 “In the beginning of the year in the tenth day of the (First) Month…in the Bone-Day the hand of the Lord was upon Me and brought Me thither… in the visions of God He brought me thither into the land of Israel and set Me upon a very high mountain[*1] by which was as a frame of a city[*2] on the south.”
    [*1 Mount of Olives Mk.11:1 Mt.21:1 Lk.19:29,37; Mt24:3; Lk.21:38 Mk.14:26 ]
    [*2 Jerusalem]

    Re:
    <<this preparation of the passover was not of the passover lamb, for that had been prepared and eaten the night before.>>
    (1)
    The entire day “the fourteenth day of the First Month” was the “Preparation of Passover”.

    Exodus 12:12 “I will pass through [‘abar’] this night” = Joshua 5:1,9,10 “we were passed over [‘abar’]”

    “The fourteenth day… prepare …the service was prepared the same day…” 2Chronicles 35:1,4/6,10/11,14,16,17/19. “…prepared the same day to keep the passover… they killed the passover… and kept the passover”. Exodus 12:6b-13.

    Exodus 12:8 “keep [‘chagag’] it the fourteenth day…kill it between the late quarters”,12,14 = Leviticus 23:5 “the fourteenth between the late quarters passover” = Joshua 5:10 “kept [‘asah’] passover on the fourteenth day late”. “In the fourteenth day of the First Month passover of the LORD.” Numbers 28:16 Jos5:10 Es45:21a = John 19:14.

    Therefore, ‘pesach’=“prepare”=“kill”=“keep”=“to passover”, so that <<this preparation of the passover>> was, “the passover”—“when they killed the lamb”, “preparing” it, “on the fourteenth day”, to be eaten, the night after. John 18:28.

    Re:
    <<the Jews say, that Jesus suffered on the eve of the passover [T. Bab. Sanhedrin, fol. 43. 1. & 67. 1.]; and the author of the blasphemous account of his life [Toldos Jesu, p. 18.] says, it was the eve both of the passover and the sabbath; which account so far agrees with the evangelic history>>

    Correct.
    1) The fourteenth as such was “The Preparation Day of the Passover”.
    2) The fourteenth also indeed was “The Preparation of the Passover-” day that immediately after it, followed, the fifteenth day of the First Month. In other words, the fourteenth was “The Preparation” of “the sabbath” of the passover which fell on “the fifteenth day of the First Month”, and was the “Feast-”, and, without saying, the “great day sabbath of” the passover.
    3) And so, the fourteenth day of the First Month was “The Preparation Day of the Passover” in all and as a whole. For eight days “in the First Month on the fourteenth day of the month to the twenty first day of the month from late evening until late evening” Exodus 12:18, was “passover”— and the fourteenth day was its “Preparation (Day)”.
    “The fourteenth mid-afternoon kill the passover … eat the flesh in That Night (after) with unleavened bread… This Night” [which historically became the night of the fifteenth]. Exodus 12:6b,7,12.
    “This Day” at the first passover, was “the fourteenth” Exodus 12:14 Joshua 5:10 Ezekiel 45:21a; at the next passover it had become “the fifteenth” Joshua 5:11 Numbers 33:3; 28:17 Lev 23:6,
    “In the fifteenth day of this month is the feast; seven days shall ulb be eaten.” Numbers 28:17 “That Day…a feast seven days” Ezekiel 45:21b,22, “shall be unto you for a memorial and ye shall keep it a feast to the LORD”, “seven days”.
    Exodus 12: “15 Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread… from the first day ulb until the seventh day ulb… 16 In the first day ulb holy convocation and in the seventh day ulb holy convocation. 17 Ye shall observe / feast ulb in This Selfsame Bone Day I have brought your armies out… 18 on the fourteenth day”.
    “In the end of the four hundred and thirty years even the selfsame Bone-Day [LXX “night”] it came to pass that all the hosts of the LORD went out from the land of Egypt—This That Night to be much observed unto the LORD for bringing them out… This That Night of the LORD” “They departed on the fifteenth day.” Numbers 33:3.

    Re:
    <<Nor do I find that there was any particular day which was called "the preparation of the passover" in such sense, and much less that this day was the day before the eating of the passover.>>

    Very strange! Gill clearly confuses <<the eating of the passover>> with the Lord’s Supper at the start of the day that the passover would be killed on… “mid-afternoon on the fourteenh day of the month”.

    Re:
    <<According to the law in ( Exodus 12:3-6 ) the lamb for the passover was to be separated from the rest of the flock on the tenth day of the month, and to be kept up till the fourteenth; but this is never called the preparation of the passover;>>

    No, it’s <never>… in <<the law in Exodus 12:3-6>>, <called… the preparation of the passover>>; but it clearly, practically was, it. Also in other Scriptures, as quoted above, the fourteenth day of the First Month gets described and defined as a or the, day of “Preparation of the Passover”.
    From the nature of things, in order for the sacrifice to be eaten, it had in preparation to be selected and separated and penned apart, and had to be watched over until “mid-afternoon on the fourteenth” [‘behn-ha-arba-yim’] when it was taken to the altar and was slaughtered.
    On the fifteenth after sunset and before midnight, the sacrifice was then roasted and “the flesh” of it was “eaten” and thus associated with and as it were “co-buried together with” the “corruptibility” of the eater.
    The next day, that which remained” of the lamb had to be “carried forth out of Egypt” into the desert where, “in the end” and fullness of “the selfsame Bone-Day” of the passover’s “great day of sabbath feast”, its ashes were returned to ashes, and the carcass was “burned with fire” and as it were interred or buried, fully and finally.

    Re:
    <<was it so called, it cannot be intended here; the preparing and making ready the passover the evangelists speak of, were on the same day it was eaten, and design the getting ready a place to eat it in, and things convenient for that purpose, and the killing the lamb, and dressing it, and the like, ( Matthew 26:17 Matthew 26:19 ) ( Mark 14:12 Mark 14:15 Mark 14:16 ) ( Luke 22:8 Luke 22:9 Luke 22:12 Luke 22:13 ) there is what the Jews call (xoph owrp) , which was a space of fifteen days before the passover, and began at the middle of the thirty days before the feast, in which they used to ask questions, and explain the traditions concerning the passover F26:>>
    Re:
    <<the preparing and making ready the passover the evangelists speak of>>
    Cf.: <<there is nothing in John 18:28 or anywhere I can see to infer that the Last Supper had paschal meat with it>>
    No; the “flesh” of the passover sacrifice automatically was one of the two components of the passover-‘supper’ of “the flesh with ULB”. Exodus 12:8.
    But the ‘Last Supper’ had no ‘flesh’ or ‘meat’, but was composed of “bread”—leavened “bread”, and “wine”—alcoholic “wine” and therefore was 1) not the passover’s meal and was not 2) in the night after the passover had been killed—“the first night” of “seven days” of ULB on which the Jews NORMALLY would have assembled together, and NORMALLY would have EATEN the passover meal of “the flesh of the passover with ULB”.
    Only, on this occasion the most holy place of the sacrifice was destroyed by the earthquake and tearing in two of the veil when Jesus had died and had put an end to sacrifices forever. So the sanhedrin had an emergency meeting to discuss events of the past day and evaluate circumstances on “that first night”—and Joseph and Nicodemus at the same time could plan their undertaking on “the First Night” of ULB “according to the Custom of the Jews to bury … that which REMAINED” of the passover sacrifice and “BURY the body of Jesus”—John 19:38,39.
    Clearly “THIS NIGHT” which had to be “SOLEMNLY OBSERVED” as the “BONE-DAY NIGHT” of passover in Exodus 12:41,42, was “THIS THAT NIGHT” which “the Christ”—the “Lamb of God”—“according to the ETHICAL LAW of the Jews TO BURY”, “OUGHT TO HAVE SUFFERED” John 19:40 Luke 24:26,27,44 ….“ought to have suffered”, “on the fifteenth day—THE WHOLE-DAY-BONE-DAY-BURIAL-DAY of the First Month”.
    Passover’s Supper normally WOULD have had paschal meat with it. “THIS NIGHT”, however, “AFTER THESE THINGS WHICH HAD HAPPENED”, “THAT WHOLE DAY”, and “as the LORD had promised… (had) come to pass” … Jesus’ two disciples must have said, “IT IS THE LORD YAHWEH’S PASSOVER WHO PASSED OVER the houses of his Israel …. this first night.” John 19:38 Exodus 12:25-27.
    The supper of the last ever passover, had, no <<paschal meal>>, what <<paschal meat with it>>!
    The Passover MEAL did not occur until after sunset in the “evening” of 15 Nisan after they had killed the passover “late on the fourteenth” the day of the Crucifixion the day before.
    But the Lord Jesus’ ‘Last Supper’ was “The Lord’s Supper”—“THE SUPPER OF THE GREAT GOD” of the New Testament—which He Himself had instituted, and “that whole selfsame BONE-DAY-NIGHT” Himself had “EATEN WITH TEARS” and “SORROWFULNESS” OF HEART “EXCEEDING DEATH”.

    Jesus did “eat”—“thus it is written it behoved the Christ TO SUFFER”. “Thus it is written it behoved the Christ TO SUFFER” that “I MAY eat the passover”—
    “MAY eat”–‘phágoh’, Subjunctive. The KJV has Future INDICATIVE, “I shall eat”. The KJV is WRONG!
    The disciples asked that they “may PREPARE THAT Thou eatest the passover”–‘hetoimasohmen HINA phagehis to pascha’. 14:12.
    to “MAKE READY / PREPARE that Thou MAYEST eat”. 14:14.
    Reformed churches have ‘Preparation service’ the night before The Lord’s Supper next day.
    The Jews the night of the day the passover would be killed, have ‘Bedikat Chamets’–‘Removal of Leaven’, the preparation service of the passover and its meal the night after.
    ‘esthíohn’- Metaphor. E.g., ‘with the sense of supposed security’ Luke 17:27 [Wigram] ‘follow our common mode of living’ Matthew 11:18 [Wigram] ‘to bite one’s lip’–‘esthíein tehn chelúnehn’ Follet Classic Greek Dictionary.
    Mark 14
    “17 And in the evening He came with the twelve. 18 And as THEY sat on and THEY ate, JESUS, spoke …”
    “Jesus spoke, saying, One of you … eating (and drinking) with Me”—“one of us—one who is My TRUSTED FRIEND—will betray Me.”–‘heis eks humohn paradohsei me, ho esthíohn met’ emou.’
    Therefore, Re: <<The phrase "One of you which eateth with me" CLEARLY indicates our Savior ate Passover that night. If there was no paschal meat in what the Lord ate that night, then He would NOT have called it Passover.>>
    Jesus did NOT say one of them ate <Passover> with Him;
    Saying so DISREGARDS the fact the four Gospels mention “bread” and “wine” which the disciples ate but Jesus did not eat.
    If <<paschal meat>> had been eaten that night, the Gospels would have said so, seeing they do mention the “bread” and the “wine” which had been eaten that night. Why would they not also have mentioned the <<paschal meat>>, had <<paschal meat>> been eaten that night?!
    And by the way, Jesus directed his disciples to where they had to prepare for the Passover of Yahweh that night. He asked no one where it would be.

    Re:
    <<the preparing and making ready the passover the evangelists speak of, were on the same day it was eaten, and design the getting ready a place to eat it in, and things convenient for that purpose, and the killing the lamb, and dressing it, and the like, ( Matthew 26:17 Matthew 26:19 ) ( Mark 14:12 Mark 14:15 Mark 14:16 ) ( Luke 22:8 Luke 22:9 Luke 22:12 Luke 22:13 ) there is what the Jews call (xoph owrp) , which was a space of fifteen days before the passover, and began at the middle of the thirty days before the feast, in which they used to ask questions, and explain the traditions concerning the passover F26:>>

    Re:
    <<the preparing and making ready the passover the evangelists speak of, were on the same day it was eaten>>
    What does Gill say, were <<the preparing and making ready the passover>>? He states, <<the preparing and making ready the passover design the getting ready a place to eat it in, and things convenient for that purpose, and the killing the lamb, and dressing it, and the like>>. So <<prepared and eaten>> means that <<the passover lamb>> was sacrificed / killed; and it means that the sacrificing or killing was <<this preparation … of the passover lamb>>.

    Note that Gill at first stated <<this preparation of the passover was not of the passover lamb, for that had been prepared and eaten the night before. Nor do I find that there was any particular day which was called "the preparation of the passover" in such sense [[killing the passover GE]], and much less that this day [[the passover was killed GE]], was the day before the eating of the passover.>>

    If eaten the night before, the sacrificed had to have been killed the day before the night it was eaten on.
    Now Gill says, <<the preparing and making ready the passover design … the killing (of) the lamb>>. So Gill contradicts himself.

    But that’s not so bad. What is really bad, is that Gill believed <<the preparing and making ready>> which included the slaughter of the passover sacrifice, <<were on the same day it was eaten>>.
    It is not only the fault of Gill, but of all Christianity to teach that Jesus died and was buried on the same day of the fourteenth of the month. Despite being universal, the idea remains wrong, and in fact supplies the main reason for and of the lamentable accepted status quo in Christian doctrine concerning the Last Passover it “behoved the Christ to suffer according to the Law and Prophets”.

    Re:
    <<there is what the Jews call … a space of fifteen days before the passover, and began at the middle of the thirty days before the feast, in which they used to ask questions, and explain the traditions concerning the passover….>>

    The Gospels seem to place this <space of…days before the passover>, here,
    John 11:54 Jesus therefore walked no more openly among the Jews; but went thence unto a country near to the wilderness, into a city called Ephraim, and there continued with his disciples. 55 And the Jews' passover was nigh at hand: and many went out up to Jerusalem before the passover to purify themselves. [Jn18:28b] 56 Then sought they for Jesus, and spake among themselves… in the temple as they stood, What think ye that he will not come to the feast? 57 ...the chief priests and the Pharisees had given a commandment that, if any knew where he were he should shew it that they might take him...
    ...just before the ninth day of the First Month
    John 12:1-11
    Then Jesus six days before the Days of Passover (Ulb Feast) came to Bethany where Lazarus was which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead. 2 There they made him ...lunch; and Martha served:

    Re:
    <<…but this is never called the preparation of the passover: and on the night of the fourteenth month they sought diligently, in every hole and corner of their houses, for leavened bread, in order to remove it …; but this also never went by any such name:>>

    Correct, <<the night of the fourteenth month>> of course came after the close of the thirteenth day at sunset. And correct, <this> evening and night ‘service’, <<also never went by any such name>> as ‘preparation of the passover’. But it traditionally became known as ‘Bedikat Chametz’, “The Search for Leaven”, and practically was the preparatory service with which the Jews began both the fourteenth day and the whole feast of eight days long ‘passover’— beginning “from dusk [‘ereb’] the fourteenth day until dusk [‘ereb’] the twenty first day”. Exodus 12:18.
    And, as shown above, <this> “fourteenth day of the First Month” ever in the Scriptures went by more or less the name, ‘preparation of the passover’. In John 19:14 by the end of the first century, that name has become customary among Christians for “This That Day Selfsame Bone-Day” of the Passover of Yahweh, Jesus the Christ’s Suffering, Crucifixion, and Death.
    Not of Burial!

    Re:
    <<…wherefore, if any respect is had to the preparation for the passover, it must either design the preparation of the "Chagigah", which was a grand festival, commonly kept on the fifteenth day, and which was sometimes called the passover; or else the preparation for the whole feast all the remaining days of it; (See Gill on John 18:28)>>

    “The fourteenth day of the First Month”, “was Preparation OF the Passover”—‘ehn paraskeueh TOU pascha’.

    Correct.Preparation of the Passover” on the fourteenth in John 19:14 <<design(ed) the preparation>> FOR, <<the "Chagigah", which was a grand festival, commonly kept on the fifteenth day, and which was sometimes called the passover>> like in John 19:31 for example.

    In John 19:31, 1) “The Jews asked Pilate that the bodies should not stay on the cross … because That Day was great day of sabbath” of the passover for them; and “because” they did not want “the bodies should stay on the cross on the sabbath … great day of sabbath” of the passover” for them.

    In John 19:31, 2) “The Jews asked Pilate that the bodies should not stay on the cross … since it had become / was the Preparation” the Sixth Day of the week “which” for them “is the Fore-Sabbath” and day of “the Jews’ preparations” for the weekly Sabbath Day. Mark 15:42 John 19:42 Matthew 27:62.

    Re:
    <<but it seems best of all to understand it only of the preparation for the sabbath, which, because it was in the passover week, is called the passover preparation day: and it may be observed, that it is sometimes only called "the day of the preparation", and "the preparation", ( Matthew 27:62 ) ( Luke 23:54 ) ( John 19:31 ) and sometimes the "Jews' preparation day", ( John 19:42 ) and it is explained by the Evangelist ( Mark 15:42 ) . "It was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath"; on which they both prepared themselves for the sabbath, and food to eat on that day; and this being the time of the passover likewise, the preparation was the greater: and therefore to distinguish this preparation day for the sabbath, from others, it is called the passover preparation; nor have I observed that any other day is called the preparation but that before the sabbath: the Jews dispute about preparing food for the sabbath on a feast day, as this was; they seem to forbid it, but afterwards soften their words, and allow it with some provisos: their canon runs thus F2;>>

    Re:
    <<but it seems best of all to understand it only of the preparation for the sabbath, which, because it was in the passover week, is called the passover preparation day>>
    Why <<best only of the preparation for the sabbath>>?
    <It> was both “the Preparationand, “That Day great day of sabbath of” the passover, and it must be best of all to understand it of <only> “the Preparation which” because it was the Sixth Day of the week, in any week, would have been called “the Fore-Sabbath”, and NEVER, <<the passover preparation day>>, the former always having been the fifteenth day of the First Month, and the latter, always having been the fourteenth day of the First Month.

    Re:
    <<…and it may be observed, that it is sometimes only called "the day of the preparation", and "the preparation", (Matthew 27:62) (Luke 23:54) (John 19:31) and sometimes the "Jews' preparation day", (John 19:42) and it is explained by the Evangelist (Mark 15:42). "It was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath"; on which they both prepared themselves for the sabbath, and food to eat on that day;…>>
    Re:
    <<it is sometimes only called>>… <it>, understood in John 13:1, yes; but <it>, understood in John 19:14, no! Therefore, not, <<sometimes the "Jews' preparation day", (John 19:42)>>, but only this once in clearest possible distinction from Matthew 27:62, Luke 23:54, John 19:31, Mark 15:42!

    Re:
    <<"It was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath"; on which they both prepared themselves for the sabbath, and food to eat on that day; and this being the time of the passover likewise, the preparation was the greater: and therefore to distinguish this preparation day for the sabbath, from others, it is called the passover preparation>>

    Mark 15:42 <<It was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath” on which the Jews both prepared themselves for the sabbath, and food to eat on that day.>> Correct!
    But even though <this> having been <<the time of the passover likewise,>> and <<the preparation was the greater>>, to therefore, <<distinguish this preparation day for the sabbath, from others>>, and to therefore call it <<the passover preparation>>, is totally unwarranted.
    <<The passover preparation>>, was the fourteenth of the month and <<this preparation day>> was the day after on the fifteenth day of the First Month. Gill does not take into account the “evening-” beginning of “the Preparation which is the Fore-Sabbath” in ALL FOUR Gospels, Mark 15:42 Matthew 27:57 John 19:31,39 Luke 23:54-56a. And Gill misses the passover’s “Middle-Sabbath”—“Bone-Day” [‘metaksu sabbaton’—‘etsem yom’]—“the sabbath day” of the passover that Jesus was buried on.
    Last edited by Gerhard Ebersöhn; 01-19-2017, 08:12 AM.

  • #2
    That is why Gill views <<Matthew 26:17>> as if it speaks of a different day the other Gospels speak of; and also why Gill views <<John 19:14>> as if it speaks of a different day the other Gospels speak of. But whereas all four Gospels have the same day prospectively in mind in Mark 15:42 Matthew 27:57 John 19:31,39 Luke 23:54-56a—namely, the fifteenth of the month, just so have all four Gospels the same day prospectively in mind in Mark 14:12,17 Matthew 26:17,20 Luke 22:7,14 John 18:28; 19:14—namely, the fourteenth of the month.
    Reading these two groups of texts together in their contexts, it is unmistakeable that they are telling the same story about one and the same day of the Passover chronologhically, “the first day without leaven when they always had to kill the passover”.
    The fact the four Gospels are speaking of one, and only the one day, is further enhanced by all four Gospels mentioning the “preparation” or “preparations” so unique and exclusive of the essence of the fourteenth day of the First Month that it cannot possibly be mistaken for the fifteenth day of the First Month the “Feast” and “great day sabbath” of the Passover WHICH AT ONCE WAS "The Preparation which is the Fore-Sabbath" beginning in Mark 15:42, the day ending in John 19:42 of "the Jews' preparations" for the Seventh Day Sabbath.

    Matthew 26:17a Now on the first day they cleaned leaven out,
    Mark 14:12b his disciple said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?
    Matthew 26:17b the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto Him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?
    Luke 22:9 they said unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare?
    Mark 14:13-16 The Master saith, Where is the guestchamber where I may eat the passover with my disciples? 15 there make ready for us. 16 and they made ready the passover.
    Luke 22:8,10-13 prepare us the passover that we may eat. 11 The Master saith unto thee, Where is the guestchamber where I may eat the passover with my disciples? 12 And he shall shew you a large upper room finished: there make ready. 13 And they went and found as he had said unto them:and they made ready the passover.
    Matteus 26:18,19 The Master saith, My TIME is at hand; I would eat the passover ... And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them and made ready the passover.
    Mark 14:17 And in the EVENING he cometh with the twelve.
    Matthew 26:20 Now when the EVEN was come he sat down with the twelve.
    Luke 22:14 And when THE HOUR was come, he sat down, and the twelve
    John 13:1b Jesus knowing that his HOUR was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father having loved those his own in the world, He loved them unto THE END.
    John 13:18b-22 but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me 19 Now I tell you before it come, that when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I AM.
    Luke 22:14b-20 15 With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer. For I say unto you I will not anymore eat thereof until it is fulfilled in the Kingdom of God. 17 And he took bread and gave thanks and brake it and gave unto them, saying, This is the Body of Mine given in behalf of you, this do in remembrance of me. 20 Likewise to supper’s procedure the cup, having said, This cup [of my Suffering] is the New Testament in my blood which is shed for you.

    "The Preparation Day of the Passover" marks all four Gospels therefore for the day on which Our Passover, Jesus, SUFFERED dying the death of death, spiritually, during the night of the Preparation of the Passover of Yahweh, and physically, from that they "took Him" and "six o'clock in the morning and it was the Preparation of the Passover" John 19:14, "delivered Him over to be crucified", and until they had "crucified Him" and He "surrendered" his life's spirit into his Father's hands. Three Gospels speak of this day specifically at its beginning as the day "TO prepare passover"; John speaks of it by name when in the middle of "the Preparation of the Passover (Day)".

    There is no contradiction between any of the Gospels as far as the identity and demarcation of these days, the fourteenth and fifteenth days of the First Month, are concerned.
    Last edited by Gerhard Ebersöhn; 01-19-2017, 09:08 AM.
    Comment>

    • #3
      Before I invest the time in reading this wall of text, Who is Gill?
      (I would Google it, but I don't even have a First name.)
      Comment>

      • #4
        Originally posted by atpollard View Post
        Before I invest the time in reading this wall of text, Who is Gill?
        (I would Google it, but I don't even have a First name.)
        Overview - John Gill's Exposition on the Whole Bible
        Comment>

        • #5
          Originally posted by atpollard View Post
          Before I invest the time in reading this wall of text, Who is Gill?
          (I would Google it, but I don't even have a First name.)
          Doors are found in walls.
          Comment>

          • #6
            Originally posted by atpollard View Post
            Before I invest the time in reading this wall of text, Who is Gill?
            (I would Google it, but I don't even have a First name.)
            John Gill (November 23, 1697 – October 14, 1771) was an English Baptist theologian.
            Comment>

            • #7
              Originally posted by Gerhard Ebersöhn View Post
              Doors are found in walls.
              Fair enough.

              I read it. Every word. Slowly to first follow what Gill was saying about the text. Then I reread it to follow what you were saying about what Gill was saying. Then I reread it again to follow the point you were trying to make.

              At the risk of being 'boorish', I don't really care. I look at the report that God became incarnate (Luke 1-2, John 1) and the reality that a dead man got up and walked (as evidenced by the horrible deaths witnesses were prepared to endure rather than admit they lied), and I have a lot of trouble getting too excited over exactly which day of the week and date in the Hebrew month of 'Abib' of an uncertain (to me) year he ate dinner and died.

              Would I like to know? Sure. As a matter of academic curiosity, it was an interesting discussion. Heck, you may even be 100% correct. My problem, which is not a problem with anything that you have written, is that I lack the expertise in both ancient Hebrew and Greek to evaluate the primary sources, so I am forced to rely on secondary sources. Thus at best I could contribute dueling opinions with no real support. You have already demonstrated no problem with disagreeing with your own expert (John Gill), so little would be gained by researching other opinions.

              So in the end, it is an interesting question, but one I can contribute little to.

              What I can offer on the subject is not what I think, but what Jesus said:

              Matthew 12:39-41 But He answered and said to them, “An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. The men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and indeed a greater than Jonah is here."
              Matthew 16:4 “A wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign shall be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.” And He left them and departed.
              Matthew 26:61 and said, “This fellow said, ‘I am able to destroy the temple of God and to build it in three days.' ”
              Matthew 27:40 and saying, “You who destroy the temple and build it in three days, save Yourself! If You are the Son of God, come down from the cross.”
              Matthew 27:63 saying, “Sir, we remember, while He was still alive, how that deceiver said, ‘After three days I will rise.'
              Mark 8:31 saying, “Sir, we remember, while He was still alive, how that deceiver said, ‘After three days I will rise.'
              Mark 14:58 “We heard Him say, ‘I will destroy this temple made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands.' ”
              Mark 15:29 And those who passed by blasphemed Him, wagging their heads and saying, “Aha! You who destroy the temple and build it in three days,
              Luke 11:29-32 And while the crowds were thickly gathered together, He began to say, “This is an evil generation. It seeks a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of Jonah the prophet. For as Jonah became a sign to the Ninevites, so also the Son of Man will be to this generation. The queen of the South will rise up in the judgment with the men of this generation and condemn them, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and indeed a greater than Solomon is here. The men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and indeed a greater than Jonah is here."
              John 2:19-20 Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” Then the Jews said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?”


              That he died and rose is something that I view as being of supreme importance. That Jesus claimed three days, as was Jonah, is something that I accept by faith (if he can do the former, the latter seems a trivially simple detail). The exact day and date is interesting as a question, but just an interesting question to me ... and one that I cannot answer with certainty.

              God Bless,
              Arthur
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              • #8
                Originally posted by atpollard View Post
                My problem, which is not a problem with anything that you have written, is that I lack the expertise in both ancient Hebrew and Greek to evaluate the primary sources, so I am forced to rely on secondary sources. Thus at best I could contribute dueling opinions with no real support. You have already demonstrated no problem with disagreeing with your own expert (John Gill), so little would be gained by researching other opinions.
                Don't worry about it Atpollard. Note what Gerhard says:

                And Gill misses the passover’s “Middle-Sabbath”—“Bone-Day” [‘metaksu sabbaton’—‘etsem yom’]—“the sabbath day” of the passover that Jesus was buried on.
                Gill did not miss it because it is not there. Gill was an expert in the languages (i.e. Greek, Hebrew, Latin). What is Gerhard training?

                Also note what he says in this thread.

                "The selfsame day" -Christforums

                I have personally been involved in vehement debate on the point of order. I believe I have discovered its primitive and divinely inspired meaning. For which claim I have been made the laughingstock of Christian as well as Jewish Hebrew scholarship.
                HE HAS DISCOVERED. He admits that he is "the laughingstock of Christian as well as Jewish Hebrew scholarship." No Hebrew scholar would support his claims. In fact is there is zero evidence to support his claim. If every Hebrew scholar can't see it, then are we to believe Gerhard who has no training in the language? I think not.
                Last edited by Origen; 01-20-2017, 09:56 AM.
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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Origen View Post
                  Don't worry about it Atpollard. Note what Gerhard says:

                  Gill did not miss it because it is not there. Gill was an expert in the languages (i.e. Greek, Hebrew, Latin). What is Gerhard training?

                  Also note what he says in this thread.

                  "The selfsame day" -Christforums

                  HE HAS DISCOVERED. He admits that he is "the laughingstock of Christian as well as Jewish Hebrew scholarship." No Hebrew scholar would support his claims. In fact is there is zero evidence to support his claim. If every Hebrew scholar can't see it, then are we to believe Gerhard who has no training in the language? I think not.
                  I'm very happy and grateful for your acknowledgement that you have seen _MY_ point. No one else's, but my discovery of literal literary FACTS OF TRUTH OF GOD'S WORD. It is enough for me; I rejoice in my achievement I was able to LET YOU SEE.

                  For which I thank God and give Him all the glory I can, being this myself the worst of sinners and least learned of men. The more glory TO GOD, for my shortcomings and deficiencies notwithstanding, He allowed not his Word to return to Him empty.

                  "That I may show forth all Thy Praise in the gates of the daughter of Zion I WILL REJOICE IN MY SALVATION!"
                  Comment>

                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Gerhard Ebersöhn View Post
                    I'm very happy and grateful for your acknowledgement that you have seen _MY_ point. No one else's, but my discovery of literal literary FACTS OF TRUTH OF GOD'S WORD. It is enough for me; I rejoice in my achievement I was able to LET YOU SEE.

                    For which I thank God and give Him all the glory I can, being this myself the worst of sinners and least learned of men. The more glory TO GOD, for my shortcomings and deficiencies notwithstanding, He allowed not his Word to return to Him empty.
                    Giving God the glory for something that does not exist is pointless. Moreover, given your admission that no Hebrew scholar agrees with your claim, fail to find any reason to accept it. If every Hebrew scholar can't see it, then are we to believe you who has no training in the language? I think not.
                    Last edited by Origen; 01-21-2017, 07:58 AM.
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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Origen View Post
                      Giving God the glory for something that does not exist is pointless. Moreover, given your admission that no Hebrew scholar agrees with your claim, fail to find any reason to accept it. If every Hebrew scholar can't see it, then are we to believe you who has no training in the language? I think not.
                      <<Giving God the glory for something that does not exist>>?! Then will giving God the glory for Jesus Christ Our Passover be pointless because Hebrew scholars agree that He does not exist? What is the criteria? Or what the alternative? To believe the Hebrew scholars instead of the Scriptures? Pointless to ask, yea! It makes perfect sense though to give all glory to God for truth that does exist as certainly as the words they are written with exist.

                      Moreover, to admit no Hebrew scholar agrees with me is no admission Bone Day does not exist. The reason I accept the reality of the existence in the Scriptures of Jesus' Passover of Yahweh Bone-Day, is the Realisation and Fulfilment of it in the Scriptures BY JESUS CHRIST IN HIMSELF ACORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES!
                      No Hebrew scholar can see it because it is the Scriptures' Bone Day of Jesus Christ whom they reject. Were the Hebrews to accept the one they had to accept the other; that's why they deny both.

                      <<Then are we to believe you who has no training in the language?>>

                      As far as training and knowledge with regard to the Scriptures' Bone Day is concerned, I, GE, am the best. No Jew, no Christian can teach me anything because everything that can be known about the Scriptures' Bone Day IS THERE EXPOSED FOR ANYONE TO KNOW SINCE I, GE, HAVE EXPOSED it before and for all the world, to see.

                      Comment>

                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Gerhard Ebersöhn View Post
                        Then will giving God the glory for Jesus Christ Our Passover be pointless because Hebrew scholars agree that He does not exist?
                        Really who are these Hebrew scholars? Name them!

                        Originally posted by Gerhard Ebersöhn View Post
                        Moreover, to admit no Hebrew scholar agrees with me is no admission Bone Day does not exist.
                        Your thinking is very distorted. Hebrew scholars are experts on the language. You are not. They have training and experience. You do not. Their work is subject to peer review by other scholars. Yours is not.

                        Originally posted by Gerhard Ebersöhn View Post
                        No Hebrew scholar can see it because it is the Scriptures' Bone Day of Jesus Christ whom they reject.
                        Nothing more than question begging, a fallacy. You assume what you cannot prove. The reality is they reject your claim because they are false.

                        Originally posted by Gerhard Ebersöhn View Post
                        Were the Hebrews to accept the one they had to accept the other; that's why they deny both.
                        You do know that are using the word Hebrew incorrectly. When you say Hebrew you really mean Jewish. A person who is a Hebrew scholar need not be Jewish.

                        Originally posted by Gerhard Ebersöhn View Post
                        As far as training and knowledge with regard to the Scriptures' Bone Day is concerned, I, GE, am the best.
                        Laughably to say the least. The best at what making things up out of thin air.

                        Originally posted by Gerhard Ebersöhn View Post
                        No Jew, no Christian can teach me anything...
                        And that there says it all. I have no doubt that no one can teach you anything because that would require you to do fair and honest research. That is something you are unwilling and no doubt unable to do. Your false claims regarding Jerome, the LXX, and the O.T. proves that. It was so simply to verify what I told you but even that was too much for you. Since you wrong concerning that very elementary information, then there are zero reason to accept your claims on this matter which requires a knowledge of Hebrew and Greek.
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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Origen View Post
                          Really who are these Hebrew scholars? Name them!
                          Why first you deride me no Hebrew scholars agree with me, now you tell me I must name them for you?

                          Why aren't they 'Christian' scholars? Because they are Hebrew scholars who deny the Living Christ Jesus. It's up to you to name Hebrew scholars who are Christian scholars. I have no problem, it's your problem you created for yourself.


                          Last edited by Gerhard Ebersöhn; 01-22-2017, 12:08 AM.
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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Origen View Post
                            Your thinking is very distorted. Hebrew scholars are experts on the language. You are not. They have training and experience. You do not. Their work is subject to peer review by other scholars. Yours is not.
                            What I had found out, I found out in Christian scholarship of Hebrew. No Jewish scholarship is the peer of the Christian scholarship of Hebrew, not by far! Christian knowledge of the Scriptures is superior and true whereas Jewish scholarship of Hebrew is hopelessly pathetic and false in comparison.

                            My strength lies in Christian learning, knowledge and understanding of Hebrew BETTER THAN ANY blood and faith Jewish sage could wish to have or give.
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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Origen View Post
                              Nothing more than question begging, a fallacy. You assume what you cannot prove. The reality is they reject your claim because they are false.
                              I assume NOTHING ... not one letter, not one word, not one phrase or instance of recurrence and use of the clear and specific description for the Passover as for nothing else with the words and concept of the 'etsem yom' -- "Bone Day".

                              SHOW ONE INSTANCE where I have not done JUST THAT!

                              And the reality is whoever reject my claim do so because they, have been caught asleep, and keeping on to resist the truth of the discovery of the Bible's Bone Day, must be false towards both truth and themselves.

                              But don't you worry, there are actually good fruits yielded already IN NEW VERSION TRANSLATION. No use I tell you though, because in the first place you will summarily discard any evidence; and also you won't understand, because you do not know my tongue, Afrikaans in which language translation partially already has been revised and is still in progress, awaiting publication.

                              But here's a bit of information that speaks for itself.
                              Before 2011/2012 you would not find reference to 'bone day' on internet. ZERO!
                              First 'search for' for 'bone day' ever on internet .... my making mention of it ever.
                              Few months later here and there some scholar referring to 'bone day' as if they were the discoverers of it.
                              One year or so after the first ever internet appearance on internet other than mine, reference to 1948, David Ben Gourion's first prime minister of the new state of Israel, calling That Day of Independence, "Bone-Day"!

                              and so on.

                              At this moment, google 'bone-day' and see for yourself ... chancers by the score; but also genuine stuff a plenty.






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