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Mary's children ?

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  • Mary's children ?

    It is not in the Bible that Mary had children other than Jesus - so why antagonise and agonise - any comments - wincam

  • #2
    Hi Wincam, first off, WELCOME TO CF :)

    As for the "ever-virgin" issue, the reason it exists is due to the fact that the Bible tells us that the Lord had both brothers and sisters. Here is one such passage:


    1 Jesus went out from there and *came into His hometown; and His disciples *followed Him.
    2 When the Sabbath came, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, “Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands?
    3 “Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?” And they took offense at Him.
    4 Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his hometown and among his own relatives and in his own household.”
    5 And He could do no miracle there except that He laid His hands on a few sick people and healed them.
    6 And He wondered at their unbelief.
    And He was going around the villages teaching. ~Mark 6

    Those on the "ever-virgin" side typically say that the Greek words that St. Mark used for "brother" ἀδελφός [adelphos] and "sister" ἀδελφή [adelphe] in this passage can mean "cousin", but:

    1) that is hardly a typical use of either word and
    2) if that's what he meant, why not use one of the two common words for "cousin" instead (he, in fact, uses both of the words for "cousin" in other places in his Gospel).

    The Bible is clear that Mary remained a virgin until she gave birth to her firstborn Son, but is silent concerning her virginity after that (save the teaching that she at least appears to have had other sons and daughters, the brothers and sisters of Jesus).

    Thus the controversy with those who believed she was "ever-virgin".

    Yours and His,
    David
    p.s. - this subject was broached and discussed at great length here only a month ago or so. I believe that every argument for both sides was debated at length in those two threads, so I would recommend that you find them and read through them.
    Simul Justus et Peccator ~Martin Luther

    "We are justified by faith alone, but the faith that justifies is never alone" ~John Calvin

    "The Christian does not think God will love us because we are good, but that God will make us good because He loves us." ~C. S. Lewis

    "The secret is Christ in me, not me in a different set of circumstances" ~Elisabeth Elliot

    "The law is for the self-righteous to humble their pride; the Gospel is for the lost to remove their despair. ~C. H. Spurgeon
    Comment>

    • #3
      Originally posted by David Lee View Post
      Hi Wincam, first off, WELCOME TO CF :)

      As for the "ever-virgin" issue, the reason it exists is due to the fact that the Bible tells us that the Lord had both brothers and sisters. Here is one such passage:


      Those on the "ever-virgin" side typically say that the Greek words that St. Mark used for "brother" ἀδελφός [adelphos] and "sister" ἀδελφή [adelphe] in this passage can mean "cousin", but:

      1) that is hardly a typical use of either word and
      2) if that's what he meant, why not use one of the two common words for "cousin" instead (he, in fact, uses both of the words for "cousin" in other places in his Gospel).



      The Bible is clear that Mary remained a virgin until she gave birth to her firstborn Son, but is silent concerning her virginity after that (save the teaching that she at least appears to have had other sons and daughters, the brothers and sisters of Jesus).

      Thus the controversy with those who believed she was "ever-virgin".

      Yours and His,
      David
      p.s. - this subject was broached and discussed at great length here only a month ago or so. I believe that every argument for both sides was debated at length in those two threads, so I would recommend that you find them and read through them.
      Why did take you out the part about the word "cousin"? You were on to something. Greek does have a word for "cousin" (i.e.ἀνεψιός) and it is used in the N.T. but not in connection with Jesus' brothers and sisters. Since there is a Greek word for "cousin," and since that word can be found in the N.T., there is no reason why Mark, Matthew, or even Paul would not have used.
      Comment>

      • #4
        Originally posted by Origen View Post
        Why did take you out the part about the word "cousin"? You were on to something. Greek does have a word for "cousin" (i.e.ἀνεψιός) and it is used in the N.T. but not in connection with Jesus' brothers and sisters. Since there is a Greek word for "cousin," and since that word can be found in the N.T., there is no reason why Mark, Matthew, or even Paul would not have used.

        why diverge - this is the problem not the solution - I stated and here I stand "it is not in the bible that Mary had children other than Jesus" - this is a later day Protestant innovation and addition and as such should be rejected - wincam
        Comment>

        • #5
          Originally posted by wincam View Post


          why diverge - this is the problem not the solution - I stated and here I stand "it is not in the bible that Mary had children other than Jesus" - this is a later day Protestant innovation and addition and as such should be rejected - wincam
          There are so many things wrong with this statement.... :confused:

          You may be interested in this thread wincam: Poll Question: Perpetual Virginity of Mary? -Christforums

          God bless,
          William
          Comment>

          • #6
            Originally posted by wincam View Post
            why diverge - this is the problem not the solution - I and here I stand "it is not in the bible that Mary had children other than Jesus" - this is a later day Protestant innovation and addition and as such should be rejected - wincam
            Since Jesus had brothers and sisters it is hardly unreasonable to believe that Mary had other children. Also your point is built upon a fallacy. You have already assumed that those brothers and sisters are not Mary's children.

            Comment>

            • #7
              Originally posted by Origen View Post
              Why did take you out the part about the word "cousin"? You were on to something. Greek does have a word for "cousin" (i.e.ἀνεψιός) and it is used in the N.T. but not in connection with Jesus' brothers and sisters. Since there is a Greek word for "cousin," and since that word can be found in the N.T., there is no reason why Mark, Matthew, or even Paul would not have used.
              Hi Origen, that's what I was trying to say (see point #2 in my post). Sorry about the confusion. Also, I believe there are two words which could have and should have been used if "cousin" was what was intended by both St. Mark and St. Matthew (instead of the words which always translate "brother" ἀδελφός [adelphos] and "sister" ἀδελφή [adelphe]). Either one of these words for "cousin" (see below) would have been a better choice.

              1) συγγενής, [suggenes] i.e. Luke 1:36

              2) ἀνεψιός [anepsios] i.e. Colossians 4:10


              --David
              Simul Justus et Peccator ~Martin Luther

              "We are justified by faith alone, but the faith that justifies is never alone" ~John Calvin

              "The Christian does not think God will love us because we are good, but that God will make us good because He loves us." ~C. S. Lewis

              "The secret is Christ in me, not me in a different set of circumstances" ~Elisabeth Elliot

              "The law is for the self-righteous to humble their pride; the Gospel is for the lost to remove their despair. ~C. H. Spurgeon
              Comment>

              • #8
                Originally posted by Origen View Post
                Since Jesus had brothers and sisters it is hardly unreasonable to believe that Mary had other children. Also your point is built upon a fallacy. You have already assumed that those brothers and sisters are not Mary's children.
                it is you and others who have assumed and continue to assume what is not in the Bible - wincam
                Comment>

                • #9
                  Hi Wincam, "brother" ἀδελφός [adelphos] and "sister" ἀδελφή [adelphe] are the words that are used in both Gospels. We aren't "assuming" that those words are used there because they 'are' there :)
                  Simul Justus et Peccator ~Martin Luther

                  "We are justified by faith alone, but the faith that justifies is never alone" ~John Calvin

                  "The Christian does not think God will love us because we are good, but that God will make us good because He loves us." ~C. S. Lewis

                  "The secret is Christ in me, not me in a different set of circumstances" ~Elisabeth Elliot

                  "The law is for the self-righteous to humble their pride; the Gospel is for the lost to remove their despair. ~C. H. Spurgeon
                  Comment>

                  • #10
                    Originally posted by wincam View Post
                    it is you and others who have assumed and continue to assume what is not in the Bible - wincam
                    If you are not going to reply with evidence and cogent arguments, then there is simply no reason to take you seriously.

                    Comment>

                    • #11
                      Originally posted by William View Post

                      There are so many things wrong with this statement.... :confused:

                      You maybe interested in this thread wincam: Poll Question: Perpetual Virginity of Mary? -Christforums

                      God bless,
                      William
                      not at all interested - rubbish and gibberish mostly - heard it all before and many times too - wincam
                      Comment>

                      • #12
                        Originally posted by wincam View Post

                        not at all interested - rubbish and gibberish mostly - heard it all before and many times too - wincam
                        Right, and what then is the purpose of your thread here? To duplicate that rubbish and gibberish?

                        William

                        Comment>

                        • #13
                          Originally posted by wincam View Post
                          not at all interested - rubbish and gibberish mostly - heard it all before and many times too - wincam
                          Then you are wasting your time and mine.

                          Comment>

                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Origen View Post
                            If you are not going to reply with evidence and cogent arguments, then there is simply no reason to take you seriously.
                            seriously you must be joking - just show me where it states Mary had children other than Jesus - wincam
                            Comment>

                            • #15
                              Originally posted by wincam View Post
                              seriously you must be joking - just show me where it states Mary had children other than Jesus - wincam
                              Clearly you have not read what I have said. Since Jesus had brothers and sisters it is hardly unreasonable to believe that Mary had other children. Also your point is built upon a fallacy. You have already assumed that those brothers and sisters are not Mary's children.
                              Comment>
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