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Moat Around The Tree Of Good and Evil

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  • Moat Around The Tree Of Good and Evil

    I was having coffee with a friend after church on Sunday and we ended up talking about service. First, my friend is an atheist but she enjoys a good conversation and pointing out bad arguments when it comes to defending the bible but she just hasn't made that leap yet to really believing. So the service was about the Genesis and the origin of man and sin. I was having issues with how the pastor was conveying and talking about sin because he was saying that Jesus absolved our sins. I was raised to believe we were still sinners but Jesus, and therefore God, forgives us of our sins. And maybe that was what the pastor meant but that's now what he was saying.

    My friend said that the Genesis story was one of the stories that bothers her the most for two reasons. First, she questions the fairness of us being sinners 'if' God created us. Her analogy is that you don't blame a bad painting on the painting but the painter. All the flaws of the painting is a reflection of the painter's flaws. Her second one was said in a joking manner, she asked me why a God who could with a word summon light, universes, and life could possibly forget to put a moat around a tree with a talking snake. Jokingly, she says, "Think about it, they're naked. All he has to do is dump a couple tiger fish, piranhas, and alligators in there. And not even a talking snake would have convinced them to swim over. Or he could have made a wall of cactus and rose plants. Worked for Sleeping Beauty for a hundred years." Sorry, but I had to chuckle at that but it the next thing she said bothers me. "If God knows everything, then he had to know that Adam and Eve would eventually eat from the tree of knowledge and would be sinners. So isn't their fall his fault because he only told Adam not to eat from the tree before he even made Eve. So why are we being punished as sinners and hell if he couldn't be bothered to put in a moat or a wall of cactus. He plotted against humans from the start."

    I have to admit I was stunned. I had never heard of anyone talking about our creation that way but it was kind of undeniable. Why wasn't there a moat or a wall of cactus around the tree? I accept that we are flawed as humans but it keeps bouncing around in my head that God plotted against from the beginning. I don't have a decent counter argument against her point and the more I think about it the more it bothers me. What do you think?

  • #2
    Originally posted by LeapOfFaith89 View Post
    I was having coffee with a friend after church on Sunday and we ended up talking about service. First, my friend is an atheist but she enjoys a good conversation and pointing out bad arguments when it comes to defending the bible but she just hasn't made that leap yet to really believing. So the service was about the Genesis and the origin of man and sin. I was having issues with how the pastor was conveying and talking about sin because he was saying that Jesus absolved our sins. I was raised to believe we were still sinners but Jesus, and therefore God, forgives us of our sins. And maybe that was what the pastor meant but that's now what he was saying.

    My friend said that the Genesis story was one of the stories that bothers her the most for two reasons. First, she questions the fairness of us being sinners 'if' God created us. Her analogy is that you don't blame a bad painting on the painting but the painter. All the flaws of the painting is a reflection of the painter's flaws. Her second one was said in a joking manner, she asked me why a God who could with a word summon light, universes, and life could possibly forget to put a moat around a tree with a talking snake. Jokingly, she says, "Think about it, they're naked. All he has to do is dump a couple tiger fish, piranhas, and alligators in there. And not even a talking snake would have convinced them to swim over. Or he could have made a wall of cactus and rose plants. Worked for Sleeping Beauty for a hundred years." Sorry, but I had to chuckle at that but it the next thing she said bothers me. "If God knows everything, then he had to know that Adam and Eve would eventually eat from the tree of knowledge and would be sinners. So isn't their fall his fault because he only told Adam not to eat from the tree before he even made Eve. So why are we being punished as sinners and hell if he couldn't be bothered to put in a moat or a wall of cactus. He plotted against humans from the start."

    I have to admit I was stunned. I had never heard of anyone talking about our creation that way but it was kind of undeniable. Why wasn't there a moat or a wall of cactus around the tree? I accept that we are flawed as humans but it keeps bouncing around in my head that God plotted against from the beginning. I don't have a decent counter argument against her point and the more I think about it the more it bothers me. What do you think?
    "Gen 3:5, when Satan, disguised as a serpent, said to Eve, “For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.” Here are the double lies being offered to Eve springing out of the same principle behind his botched coup attempt; first, that she would be like gods, and thus independent, able to rule over herself apart from God, and secondly, there is not one God, but many gods; each is sovereign over himself or herself." - A Sutono. Sound like "free will"?

    There's a meme I would like to share with you. It was one that I made from the beginning of my Reformed Studies. Ever see the movie 300? In the meme, that is John Calvin (Predestination) kicking Jacob Arminius (Free will) down a bottomless pit.

    I commend you at this point, because questions such as this are the beginning of a very very deep study. Generally, I consider Calvinist as those that have journeyed to such depth.

    Hopefully a picture does capture a thousand words....

    Ah, yes, the questions so long ago... . Does God know before hand? Did God foreordain beforehand? Did God predestinate beforehand? Maybe it was even man's free will? Is man responsible and held accountable? If so does not the responsibility for sins rest squarely on our shoulders? If God, then does the responsibility rest on his shoulders? How does Christ Jesus come into play?

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    God bless,
    William
    Comment>

    • #3
      Originally posted by William View Post

      "Gen 3:5, when Satan, disguised as a serpent, said to Eve, “For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.” Here are the double lies being offered to Eve springing out of the same principle behind his botched coup attempt; first, that she would be like gods, and thus independent, able to rule over herself apart from God, and secondly, there is not one God, but many gods; each is sovereign over himself or herself." - A Sutono. Sound like "free will"?

      There's a meme I would like to share with you. It was one that I made from the beginning of my Reformed Studies. Ever see the movie 300? In the meme, that is John Calvin (Predestination) kicking Jacob Arminius (Free will) down a bottomless pit.

      I commend you at this point, because questions such as this are the beginning of a very very deep study. Generally, I consider Calvinist as those that have journeyed to such depth.

      Hopefully a picture does capture a thousand words....

      Ah, yes, the questions so long ago... . Does God know before hand? Did God foreordain beforehand? Did God predestinate beforehand? Maybe it was even man's free will? Is man responsible and held accountable? If so does not the responsibility for sins rest squarely on our shoulders? If God, then does the responsibility rest on his shoulders? How does Christ Jesus come into play?

      [ATTACH=CONFIG]n17569[/ATTACH]



      God bless,
      William
      But if Eve really didn't understand the difference of good and evil, she wouldn't have understood the concept of a lie. So what defense would Eve had against Satan's lies? It would have been like lying to a toddler. So it was never a fair fight even if she had free will. I don't hold it against a toddler for believing in Santa because that was what their parents told them. So it's not fair to judge Eve for believing in his lies when she's never been experience or was warned against Satan. If there had been a wall of cactus or a moat, Satan could have lied for years without anything coming of it. Why leave such an important tree unprotected with a talking snake? It doesn't make any sense. At that point were we doomed from the beginning.
      Comment>

      • #4
        Originally posted by LeapOfFaith89 View Post

        But if Eve really didn't understand the difference of good and evil, she wouldn't have understood the concept of a lie. So what defense would Eve had against Satan's lies? It would have been like lying to a toddler. So it was never a fair fight even if she had free will. I don't hold it against a toddler for believing in Santa because that was what their parents told them. So it's not fair to judge Eve for believing in his lies when she's never been experience or was warned against Satan. If there had been a wall of cactus or a moat, Satan could have lied for years without anything coming of it. Why leave such an important tree unprotected with a talking snake? It doesn't make any sense. At that point were we doomed from the beginning.
        Eve had the Wisdom of God on her side, should she have chosen to be obedient. In today's age too much emphasis is placed on experience, and not enough on obedience. It is also noteworthy to understand that Sin entered through the first man. Adam is accredited with original sin, for he was the head of Eve. Obviously, Adam was without sin up till this point, but he lacked a righteous posterity, otherwise he would not of sinned.

        There is nowhere in Scripture that parents should teach their children by bringing them up according to a pagan culture. If parents lie to their children then that is a can of worms to be opened up in the future. Sin doesn't affect only one person, but an entire family, a community, or beyond... If a child's parents lied to them, then that sin has repercussions. Again, too much emphasis is placed on personal life experience.... and not obedience while being brought up in the precepts of the Lord. One of the top ten commandments is to honor thy father... . an honor only rightfully done after God which requires us to worship in truth.

        We are accountable for our own sins. John 3:18 "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God." Why are we condemned already? Seriously ask yourself this question. Because we do not believe? Who are they that believe John 10:26 "but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. Again and again, the reason people do not believe is because they are not among Jesus' sheep, and not because they don't believe. They don't believe because they were not PREDESTINED according to God's Sovereign Election. God does hold one accountable for sins despite passing over them, leaving them to themselves. It is important to understand this point, which is found in the doctrine of predestination, God works in a positive manner and intervenes on behalf of the Elect, but does not actively work sin in the life of those He passes over Romans 9.

        What does this mean for you? Think about it. If God before the foundation of the earth chose you as an object of his love and affection how can you claim salvation based on your own free will decision? There is only one right response according to Reformed Soteriology, all Glory belongs to God alone.

        God bless,
        William
        Comment>

        • #5
          I have to ask a question. Is it the contention here that the phrase "knowing good and evil" means moral discernment?
          Comment>

          • #6
            Originally posted by Origen View Post
            I have to ask a question. Is it the contention here that the phrase "knowing good and evil" means moral discernment?
            I moved your response here. I don't know whether you meant to post that elsewhere?

            My answer to your question:

            I honestly hadn't thought about it as moral discernment before. I only thought of it as Isaiah 45:7. Only God knows good and evil perfectly. Also, I received the Devil's question as one to convey doubt, causing us to question rather than to remain obedient. As if there were not enough advantage in knowing only good, but in contempt knowing evil also, or as if God's station relies on constraining us from an advantaged position or from knowledge. That is, as if God has reason to fear man.

            God bless,
            William
            Comment>

            • #7
              Originally posted by William View Post
              I moved your response here. I don't know whether you meant to post that elsewhere?
              Thanks. You got it right.
              Comment>

              • #8
                Originally posted by Origen View Post
                I have to ask a question. Is it the contention here that the phrase "knowing good and evil" means moral discernment?
                I see it as a mean spirited play on words. Satan promised them "something more" ... an extra discernment ... to be like God.

                And yet, like so many of his most effective lies, it was not completely false, yet it was simply completely evil.
                Man gained the 'experiential' knowledge of Good and Evil ... we learned what it is to be God haters, creatures in rebellion to our creator and frely capable of acting contrary to God's character.

                [Could you ever imagine Jesus responding the way Adam responds when confronted by God with his sin]
                "that woman that YOU gave me." Adam said it was Eve's fault and God's fault that Adam sinned.
                Contrast that with Jesus "not my will, but your will be done".
                Comment>

                • #9
                  Originally posted by LeapOfFaith89 View Post
                  I have to admit I was stunned. I had never heard of anyone talking about our creation that way but it was kind of undeniable. Why wasn't there a moat or a wall of cactus around the tree? I accept that we are flawed as humans but it keeps bouncing around in my head that God plotted against from the beginning. I don't have a decent counter argument against her point and the more I think about it the more it bothers me. What do you think?
                  I think that God would have been diminished in his glory. God does a lot of things, often amazing and sometimes terrible things, to place His Glory prominently on display. An angel with a flaming sword to prevent Adam and Eve from ever having the chance to even approach the tree, would have revealed to the angels and all of creation a God of Holiness and Justice, but it would have kept the extraordinary depth of his great love hidden. That the Father loves the Son might still be seen. That the father loves those who are morally perfect, might still be seen. That God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son to redeem a people that God loved before the foundation of the Earth even though we hated him ... would have remained forever hidden.

                  Not only would God's glory have been diminished, but our welfare would have also been diminished. Adam walked with God as the creation loved by its Creator. We are God's adopted Sons ... made possible through Christ and redemption (both brought about by the fall). More than that, we are the BRIDE and the BODY of Christ. From what God says in scripture about Husbands and Wives and 'a man's own body', we may infer that Christ does not consider himself complete without us. [Let me be 100% clear, this is due to NO LACK IN HIM, but is 100% because of His great love for us.] Most of this would also have remained hidden behind a gospel of works if a sinless people worshiped a holy God with no need for a Savior.

                  The saying "What you meant for evil, God meant for good." never more fully applied than to the story of the snake and the tree and the garden and the fall.

                  I hope you have an answer and can stop wondering.
                  Amen.
                  Comment>

                  • #10
                    Originally posted by atpollard View Post
                    Not only would God's glory have been diminished, but our welfare would have also been diminished. Adam walked with God as the creation loved by its Creator. We are God's adopted Sons ... made possible through Christ and redemption (both brought about by the fall). More than that, we are the BRIDE and the BODY of Christ. From what God says in scripture about Husbands and Wives and 'a man's own body', we may infer that Christ does not consider himself complete without us. [Let me be 100% clear, this is due to NO LACK IN HIM, but is 100% because of His great love for us.] Most of this would also have remained hidden behind a gospel of works if a sinless people worshiped a holy God with no need for a Savior.
                    G'day brother atpollard,

                    Would Paul disagree? By no means would he consider any single person namely the other apostles incomplete? And that is not to suggest that he himself was married, but I do understand what you're suggesting as Eve was made a "help meet" for Adam.

                    By the way, saw a cool little enactment a few years ago done by a Calvary Chapel Pastor. He had two pieces of paper of different colors and glued them together before giving his sermon. At the end of his sermon on marriage, he tried to separate the two, which ripped, each paper had its "spouse" still blended within them. Gave a whole new meaning to "two becoming one flesh". His point is that we take upon ourselves our spouses' personality or characteristics... we grow together and can never be truly separated again after becoming one flesh.

                    Back to the OP, I agree with what you are conveying. We bring nothing to the table, but we are only recipients. Check out the WCF shorter Catechism which really nails it:

                    Q. 1. What is the chief end of man?
                    A. Man’s chief end is to glorify God,[1] and to enjoy him forever.[2]
                    • [1] Psalm 86. Bow down thine ear, O LORD, hear me: for I am poor and needy. Preserve my soul; for I am holy: O thou my God, save thy servant that trusteth in thee. Be merciful unto me, O Lord: for I cry unto thee daily. Rejoice the soul of thy servant: for unto thee, O Lord, do I lift up my soul. For thou, Lord, art good, and ready to forgive; and plenteous in mercy unto all them that call upon thee. Give ear, O LORD, unto my prayer; and attend to the voice of my supplications. In the day of my trouble I will call upon thee: for thou wilt answer me. Among the gods there is none like unto thee, O Lord; neither are there any works like unto thy works. All nations whom thou hast made shall come and worship before thee, O Lord; and shall glorify thy name. For thou art great, and doest wondrous things: thou art God alone. Teach me thy way, O LORD; I will walk in thy truth: unite my heart to fear thy name. I will praise thee, O Lord my God, with all my heart: and I will glorify thy name for evermore. For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell. O God, the proud are risen against me, and the assemblies of violent men have sought after my soul; and have not set thee before them. But thou, O Lord, art a God full of compassion, and gracious, longsuffering, and plenteous in mercy and truth. O turn unto me, and have mercy upon me; give thy strength unto thy servant, and save the son of thine handmaid. Show me a token for good; that they which hate me may see it, and be ashamed: because thou, LORD, hast holpen me, and comforted me.
                    • Isaiah 60:21. Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified.
                    • Romans 11:36. For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
                    • 1 Corinthians 6:20, 10:31. For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.... Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
                    • Revelation 4:11. Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
                    • [2] Psalm 16:5-11. The LORD is the portion of mine inheritance and of my cup: thou maintainest my lot. The lines are fallen unto me in pleasant places; yea, I have a goodly heritage. I will bless the LORD, who hath given me counsel: my reins also instruct me in the night seasons. I have set the LORD always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved. Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope. For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Thou wilt show me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.
                    • Psalm 144:15. Happy is that people, that is in such a case: yea, happy is that people, whose God is the LORD.
                    • Isaiah 12:2. Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation.
                    • Luke 2:10. And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.
                    • Philippians 4:4. Rejoice in the Lord alway: and again I say, Rejoice.
                    • Revelation 21:3-4. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.


                    God bless,
                    William
                    Comment>

                    • #11
                      Originally posted by William View Post
                      G'day brother atpollard,
                      Would Paul disagree? By no means would he consider any single person namely the other apostles incomplete? And that is not to suggest that he himself was married, but I do understand what you're suggesting as Eve was made a "help meet" for Adam.
                      Greetings, William:

                      No argument from me that either SINGLE or MARRIED is superior.

                      God has a view of Marriage that places the Husband-Wife unity on a par with the Trinity and Christ-Church unity and uses each to illustrate the others. They are not equal, but they have a similarity in that they all share a divine, spiritual glue and dimension. It is not an accident that the first institution created by God was Marriage and the institution that will survive into eternity is the Marriage of Christ and the Church. In essence, there are no single people. We are all married. Some practice with a helpmate on Earth, and others get a head-start on being the bride of Christ. We all end up in the same place ... knit together into one body whose head is Christ.

                      For the OP, the far more important point is how each new chapter in God's unfolding revelation reveals more about the character of God. And how each new revelation leaves us more in awe.

                      Consider John 1 and Genesis 2 tell us that the eternal Godhead got down into the dirt to form Man with his own hands and breath His own breath into us. No simple act of command, like the animals. God demonstrated love in the beginning by humbling himself in the dirt. If he had stopped there, we would have reason enough to be in awe of God.

                      However, we also know that God walked with Adam in the cool of the day. Beyond creation, we see fellowship.

                      Then the fall. We are given a chance to prove obedient and fail the test. Even worse, Adam flees from the responsibility for his actions and throws the blame in God's face. By all rights, we should see the wrath of a Holy God revealed against a rebellious creature. Instead, we see love and patience and mercy. Without the tree, without the test, none of these awe inspiring qualities of God would have been revealed.

                      How much more was revealed through the patriarchs and the Law?

                      How much more still through the Incarnate God-Man? The Death and Resurrection?

                      How much more of God's splendor will be revealed at our Glorification?

                      Like the "chief end of man", so too, the chief end of the Fall appears to be our good and God's Glory. I truly believe that we are infinitely better off post-redemption than Adam was pre-fall. Ours is a God who has revealed far more of his love and grace and called us into a far superior relationship and destiny. I think the author of Hebrews agrees with me. :)

                      Arthur
                      Comment>

                      • #12
                        Originally posted by William View Post

                        Eve had the Wisdom of God on her side, should she have chosen to be obedient. In today's age too much emphasis is placed on experience, and not enough on obedience. It is also noteworthy to understand that Sin entered through the first man. Adam is accredited with original sin, for he was the head of Eve. Obviously, Adam was without sin up till this point, but he lacked a righteous posterity, otherwise he would not of sinned.

                        There is nowhere in Scripture that parents should teach their children by bringing them up according to a pagan culture. If parents lie to their children then that is a can of worms to be opened up in the future. Sin doesn't affect only one person, but an entire family, a community, or beyond... If a child's parents lied to them, then that sin has repercussions. Again, too much emphasis is placed on personal life experience.... and not obedience while being brought up in the precepts of the Lord. One of the top ten commandments is to honor thy father... . an honor only rightfully done after God which requires us to worship in truth.

                        We are accountable for our own sins. John 3:18 "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God." Why are we condemned already? Seriously ask yourself this question. Because we do not believe? Who are they that believe John 10:26 "but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. Again and again, the reason people do not believe is because they are not among Jesus' sheep, and not because they don't believe. They don't believe because they were not PREDESTINED according to God's Sovereign Election. God does hold one accountable for sins despite passing over them, leaving them to themselves. It is important to understand this point, which is found in the doctrine of predestination, God works in a positive manner and intervenes on behalf of the Elect, but does not actively work sin in the life of those He passes over Romans 9.

                        What does this mean for you? Think about it. If God before the foundation of the earth chose you as an object of his love and affection how can you claim salvation based on your own free will decision? There is only one right response according to Reformed Soteriology, all Glory belongs to God alone.

                        God bless,
                        William
                        Where does it say in Genesis that either Adam or Eve had the Wisdom of God? Sure he visited them but they were basically toddlers without a comprehension of good and evil. Yes, they gave them a rule but what toddler follows rules exactly. Heck, most people don't even leave their kids alone with a dog much less a talking snake with super powers. He put no extra precautions to prevent them from eating the fruit other than his word. Which technically should be enough, but realistically on some level did God fail to understand human nature or were we doomed from the start? I mean humans are constantly doing things that could kill them like smoking cigarettes, skydiving, and a ton of other things. If we take human nature into consideration, a threat of death isn't really a deterrent. Then imagine being in a room where everyone knows more than you, more than you can comprehend, do you really want to be the dumb one in the room. Because at that point, God and Satan could comprehend good and evil but Adam and Eve couldn't. Was it really realistic for God to expect his creations to want to remain ignorant. I'm not denying that they committed a sin but it still bothers me. We are accountable for our sins because we understand good and evil, but can Adam and Eve really be accountable for theirs until after eating the apple? If I put a toddler in a room with a viper and leave them alone, I don't blame the toddler for getting bit.
                        Comment>

                        • #13
                          Originally posted by LeapOfFaith89 View Post
                          Where does it say in Genesis that either Adam or Eve had the Wisdom of God?
                          God's words are wisdom. God gave to Adam and Eve His word, which they did not follow in obedience, but fell subject to. Please read Proverbs 8:8-36.

                          Originally posted by LeapOfFaith89 View Post
                          Was it really realistic for God to expect his creations to want to remain ignorant.
                          Are you reading the previous posts above. Do you really think that was God's motive? You just parroted the lie of Satan, do you find more truth in the age old hiss from out of the garden than in God's word?

                          Originally posted by LeapOfFaith89 View Post
                          I'm not denying that they committed a sin but it still bothers me. We are accountable for our sins because we understand good and evil, but can Adam and Eve really be accountable for theirs until after eating the apple?
                          Where are you getting that we are accountable for our sins because we understand good and evil? We are repentant of our sins because we fathom the holiness of God and how serious our sins are to a holy God that has a complete hatred for our sins. And where are you getting an "apple" from?

                          Originally posted by LeapOfFaith89 View Post
                          If I put a toddler in a room with a viper and leave them alone, I don't blame the toddler for getting bit.
                          • Luke 11:11-12 What father among you, if his son asks for a fish, will instead of a fish give him a serpent; or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion?

                          Adam and Eve were not children, they were a man and woman. They both received the word of God, being told to not eat thereof.

                          It seems that you don't blame the responsible party for not following instruction, but only resort to a bad analogy, making them innocent when they were forewarned. You're a terrible defense attorney leapoffaith. Mankind does not need to be told they are innocent or that God is unjust. Do you think you know better or could do better than God thereby making God no wiser than you?

                          Back to your analogy of an innocent toddler. If you were to hold an infant today and they saw a shiny watch on your wrist would they grab for it? If you tell them no and pull your hand away do they not cry because they do not get what they want? If you show them again, do they not reach out again and throw a tantrum until they get what they want? If that was a man LeapofFaith, you would be dead and that man would stand over your dead corpse with your watch. If it wasn't for the grace of God like arms around the infant restraining them. That is the seriousness of our sin nature if left unrestrained, and no one can claim innocence. It is the unregenerate man's nature. It "was" seen in you and it was seen in me. It was seen in most everyone of us since birth.

                          God bless,
                          William
                          Comment>

                          • #14
                            It may be a subtle point, but it is probably worth making.

                            God TOLD Adam not to eat of the fruit. Adam heard and understood. Adam ate. God judged Adam and said Adam sinned by disobeying.

                            Eve was not yet created when God told Adam about the tree. Eve claimed she was deceived. God agreed with Eve.

                            Eve was deceived and Adam knowingly sinned. That is the judgement of God in Genesis.

                            Both actions carried consequences (don't actions always carry consequences), but there is a difference between being deceived and willfully sinning.
                            Comment>

                            • #15
                              Originally posted by atpollard View Post
                              It may be a subtle point, but it is probably worth making.

                              God TOLD Adam not to eat of the fruit. Adam heard and understood. Adam ate. God judged Adam and said Adam sinned by disobeying.

                              Eve was not yet created when God told Adam about the tree. Eve claimed she was deceived. God agreed with Eve.

                              Eve was deceived and Adam knowingly sinned. That is the judgement of God in Genesis.

                              Both actions carried consequences (don't actions always carry consequences), but there is a difference between being deceived and willfully sinning.
                              Hi atpollard,

                              Did Adam not take upon himself the spiritual headship and lead Eve? If Eve was not commanded by God then she must of been by Adam? Eve obviously knew the commandment:
                              • Genesis 3:2-3 And the woman said to the serpent, "We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden, but God said, 'You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.'"

                              Just another failure, but one I can see as being most plausible because of God's curse upon the woman. It seems her sin could of been her lack of submission to her husband, but nonetheless more subtle than Adam's failure as head of the household, but his not as pronounced as with Jacob and Esau, Esau a man that sold his status as spiritual leader for a meal.

                              Originally posted by atpollard View Post
                              There is a difference between being deceived and willfully sinning.
                              Had a woman once suggest on a forum that her husband deceived her by setting her up to cheat on him with his friend because he wanted out of the marriage. She committed adultery and that was actually her defense. I always wondered where she got that from!

                              God bless,
                              William
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