Incompatibility

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  • Incompatibility

    I believe there is a significant advantage for one to know and understanding the difference in God’s separate dispensations concerning His people Israel, and His children the Church (all believers in Christ, which separates the people and children), because it is through both eras that He worked to bring man into fellowship with Himself and His Son. The first dispensation was Israel’s “schoolmaster,” to bring them “unto Christ”; the present dispensation finds them “no longer under a schoolmaster,” and are joined with the Gentile world resulting in being “all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus” (Gal 3:24-26).

    The importance of differentiating between Israel and the Church is to reveal the final status God has planned for each (Israel and the Church). Though Bible doctrine related to this distinction in the coming eschatological period is "nonessential" (teachings not related to receiving salvation), it is nonetheless advantageous (as all nonessential doctrine is) for spiritual growth.

    It is my belief that those who remain among the nation of Israel will be saved during the end times (Rom 11:26) and that they (non-Messianic Jews) have been and will remain distinct from the Church, even in the eternal state.
    NC

    [SIZE=14px]Incompatibility[/SIZE]

    To the church today, which would seem to be a corruption of Judaism and Christianity (Judeo-Christian#!?--NC) the question must be asked, and answered: What is Christianity?

    In the first place, Judaism was a religion, a systematic trial of man; as Moses said, at the time of the giving of the Law, “God is come to prove you” (Ex 20:20). Christianity affirms this trial over, the sentence of the law given—“none righteousness, no, not one”; the Cross, the judgment of the world more full still; “the carnal mind” as enmity against God. Christianity thus begins in the soul as a true repentance, an acceptance of God’s righteous judgment against him, the end of all hope of betterment for him, save in a new life and nature from God: he must be born again.

    The characteristic of Judaism was an unrent veil: man at a distance from God, who dwelt is the thick darkness (Ex 20:21; 1King 8:12) unapproachable (Lev 21:17), unknown. Christianity declares the veil rent in love and righteousness—rent by the Cross of Christ, and a way of access thus to God, revealed in the Lord Jesus. “By a new and living way, which He hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, His flesh” (Heb 10:20).

    Judaism, with its many constantly repeated offerings could not make the “conscience perfect” (Heb 9:9). The law was efficacious to condemn (Gal 3:10—NC), but not to justify; and its forgiveness, needing again and again to be renewed, spoke only of the “forbearance of God” (Rom 3:25), gave no place of assured rest and acceptance with Him. “Who, for fear of death, were all their lifetime subject to bondage” (Heb 2:15). In Christ, by one offering are perfected forever those who are sanctified; the worshiper once purged has no more conscience of sin; and the righteousness of God justifies the ungodly, who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Judaism left, therefore, the people of God confounded with the world—necessarily, as giving no full assurance to any. No cry of “Abba, Father,” therefore was known—no spirit of son-ship. Christianity separates its justified ones from the world, to which they no more belong and have been crucified to (Gal 6:14)—and separates them to God, to whom they belong and in whom they are. “For your life is hid with Christ in God” (Col 3:3).

    Judaism, for worldly men, had a “worldly sanctuary” and “carnal ordinances” (Heb 9:1, 10)—things suited to act upon men in nature, in the flesh. The worship of Christianity is heavenly, spiritual, in the intelligence of faith, and needing it; the worship of those brought nigh.

    Judaism had its separate order of priests, who alone had to do with sacred things. Priest and people were distinct; and while none could really draw nigh, the former had an outward, official nearness which the latter had not. In Christianity, people and priests are one and the same; there is real, not merely relative nearness to God.

    In Judaism there was God’s house, but of necessity the house and the people were quite separate; in Christianity they are identified; and this is the first way in which the Church was announced, i.e., as a building: “Upon this rock I will build My church.” Peter describes it as a building of living stones—a spiritual house (1Pet 2:5), and Paul as the temple of God in which the Spirit of God dwells (1Cor 3:16).

    - F W Grant

  • #2
    Originally posted by NetChaplain View Post
    I believe there is a significant advantage for one to know and understanding the difference in God’s separate dispensations concerning His people Israel, and His children the Church (all believers in Christ, which separates the people and children) ... (Gal 3:24-26).
    The next two verses of Gal: 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.

    If "his children" are not "his people" then children must not be people? Does "there is neither Jew nor Greek" mean there is a distinction?

    Since Christians are Abraham's offspring (Gal 3:29), what is that so-called Israel? Are Satan's offspring (John 8:44) Israel?

    Originally posted by NetChaplain View Post
    The importance of differentiating between Israel and the Church is to reveal the final status God has planned for each (Israel and the Church). Though Bible doctrine related to this distinction in the coming eschatological period is "nonessential" (teachings not related to receiving salvation), it is nonetheless advantageous
    How about practical examples of this distinction being advantages? Someone should tell Iraqi Christians facing persecution bordering on genocide that the doctrine that put them in that spot is advantages.

    Originally posted by NetChaplain View Post
    It is my belief that those who remain among the nation of Israel will be saved during the end times (Rom 11:26) and that they (non-Messianic Jews) have been and will remain distinct from the Church, even in the eternal state.
    How about that, a heaven for Jews and a heavenly doghouse for Christians.

    Romans 11:26 says nothing about the End Times. Romans 11:26 doesn't define Jews as Israel. And, if it actually means all natural descendants of Jacob will be saved, that's Universalism and hypocritical if not applied to all gentiles (Romans 11:32).




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    • #3
      Originally posted by Cornelius View Post
      Romans 11:26 says nothing about the End Times. Romans 11:26 doesn't define Jews as Israel. And, if it actually means all natural descendants of Jacob will be saved, that's Universalism and hypocritical if not applied to all gentiles (Romans 11:32).
      Hi Cornelious - Your comments are well warranted for they the norm for the general populous of Christians on the internet. There are not many presently (self included) who are sufficiently accurate concerning Israel's eschatology because Scripture (for God's reason) is not openly clear concerning this. This category of study is as mysterious and difficult to comprehend as Revelation when Israel is involved. But I believe the Bible provides sufficient enough material to apprehend these concepts, because it does reveal such if looking for it, but like gold it requires much "digging."

      The premise for the concepts that Israel (general populous of the nation and which who do not yet believe in Christ) and the Church (Jews and Gentiles who believe in Christ) are separate is that God's promise to Abraham's descendants (i.e. Jer 31:31-33; Eze 36:27).

      There will always be more disagreement between saints concerning Israel's eschatology, but it should be known that it is nonessential doctrine concerning receiving salvation, but can be useful for spiritual growth (as all nonessential salvation doctrine is).



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      • #4
        Originally posted by NetChaplain View Post
        This category of study is as mysterious and difficult to comprehend as Revelation when Israel is involved.


        Romans 11:26 [FONT=Helvetica Neue][SIZE=16px]And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,[/SIZE][/FONT]
        [FONT=Helvetica Neue][SIZE=14px][FONT=Helvetica Neue][SIZE=16px]“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
        he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;[/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]



        Paul quotes an OT verse foretelling Jesus coming to take away sin, which happened in the past, Even Paul's past. How can anyone who believes the Bible not agree that Jesus came to deliver us form sin and accomplished that about 30 AD? What in that verse, or even the whole passage, refers to the End Times? Nothing. Does Paul quote a Deliverer will come from Zion, as if it's some future event? No! Rather, he's pointing out fulfilled prophesy.

        There is the issue of what does "all" mean. As I have already shown in this thread, anyone who thinks all Jews will be saved is an Universalist obligated to believe all gentiles will be saved. It can be easily shown that the Bible's use of the word "all" doesn't, and often necessarily doesn't mean every individual in an identified category. Even a false teacher like F W Grant doesn't teach that all Jews will be saved, only that there will be a universal conversion of one future generation of Jew (even though Romans says nothing about a future generation). But, if Paul does mean every individual of Israel:

        The Church is Israel. Paul, who elsewhere explicitly teaches that Christians are Israel and that Christians are children of Abraham, reminds us that gentiles are part of Israel even in Romans 11, in the immediately prior verse to the one already quoted, 25b, "A partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in." The New Covenant opens up Israel to the gentiles, and through Christ making us citizens of Israel and children of Abraham. Paul tells us that the Gentiles are coming into Israel (joining the OT saints).

        Faithless Jews are not God's people as shown by John 8:44, Hosea 1:9, and many more. And, modern Jews are not even the Jews in the Bible (ask a Jew why he's a Jew). The state of Israel is nothing more or less than a textbook/Bible Antichrist, 2 John 1:7.


        Last edited by Cornelius; 01-24-2016, 02:16 AM.
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        • #5
          F W Grant, the author of the the article quoted in the OP, promotes numerical divination as a source of revelation hidden from the rest of us. Cult much?

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Cornelius View Post
            all Israel will be saved
            When this takes place, the following will also be effected--"He will banish ungodliness from Jacob." Thus, this prophecy has yet to transpire. Along with Jer 31:31 and Eze 36:27 which are yet to come to pass, these prophecies involve every Jew during the time of their occurrence (Rom 11:26).

            Not to contend with what you've been sharing, but I believe these prophecies are literal and not symbolic concerning Jacob (Israel). This is to confuse the Jewish nation Israel with the Church and Body of Christ. When I say Israel I'm referring to the generality of Abraham's blood descendants, not the Jews who believe in Christ.
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            • #7
              Originally posted by NetChaplain View Post
              When this takes place, the following will also be effected--"He will banish ungodliness from Jacob." Thus, this prophecy has yet to transpire. Along with Jer 31:31 and Eze 36:27 which are yet to come to pass, these prophecies involve every Jew during the time of their occurrence (Rom 11:26).
              "He will banish ungodliness form Jacob" took place when Jesus was lifted up on the cross. Do you think there's a yet future sacrifice to take away sin, to banish ungodliness?

              "The days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant." Do you think there's yet a future new covenant?

              "I will put my Spirit within you." Do you think that's a yet future work of God?

              There's a reason your verse references are from the OT, because at that time Christ's work on the cross was a yet future event.

              Romans 11:26 quotes an OT prophecy foretelling Christ's work on the cross to bring salvation to all Israelites (and gentiles) who have their faith in God. Do you not understand that Paul is attempting to explain that Christ's sacrifice covers the OT saints, as well as Christians, whom together make up the Israel of God? Romans 11 refutes your theology. There is one Israel (of God), and Christians belong to it (Romans 11:25). There is one olive Tree (Romans 11:17), a symbol of Israel, to which both OT and NT saints are attached. There is only a remnant of Israelites saved (Romans 11:5), not all of them.

              Has God rejected his people of the Old Covenant now that a New Covenant has come? By no means, they are also saved by God's grace through Christ. How is it that OT saints are saved? Paul quotes "A deliver has come from Zion to banish ungodliness from Jacob" showing Christ's sacrifice applies to the Israelite remnant (before 70 AD) chosen by grace, as well as Christians delivered from sin by the same Christ from Zion (Jerusalem, where Jesus was killed). In that way, all Israel is saved.

              Originally posted by NetChaplain View Post
              I believe these prophecies are literal and not symbolic concerning Jacob (Israel) ... When I say Israel I'm referring to the generality of Abraham's blood descendants, not the Jews who believe in Christ.
              In the Bible, Israel doesn't means "Abraham's blood descendants". Were the Israelite wives of the patriarchs blood descendants of Abraham? Why don't you call blood descendants of Abraham through Ishmael Israel? I could give many proofs to refute your position and you can give me no proof of your position (In Romans 11, Paul doesn't equate Israel with blood descendants, he only establishes himself as a blueblood). Also, the state of Israel is not the state of Abraham's blood descends. No Israeli can show himself to be a blood descendant of Abraham and the State of Israel makes no claims than any particular Jew is a blood descendant of Abraham. And, I see you have not responded to a verse I have already cited in this thread, Christians are Abraham's offspring (Gal 3:29) -- go ahead, take it literally.


              I've made my irrefutable point, so I'm going to exit this thread.
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              • #8
                Hi Cornelius - We wouldn't be able to debate with one another concerning Israel and Church doctrine because our understanding (along with many others and myself) does not parallel enough to benefit either of us. Your belief's concerning this subject are as most who I've communicated with though.
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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Cornelius View Post
                  F W Grant, the author of the the article quoted in the OP, promotes numerical divination as a source of revelation hidden from the rest of us. Cult much?
                  I wouldn't consider this divination because it is not intended (nor have I seen a misuse of it, though some might) to produce anything the Bible does not teach. This subject is unknown to many and misunderstood by most familiar with it because they have not researched what it actually is.

                  I understand divination to be something that attempts to add to Biblical revelation that God has not proclaimed. Everything presented in Numeric or Theomatic Bible coding is that which God has revealed. The concept's purpose merely expresses the possibility that God may have intentionally arranged words in the Bible in a special pattern to demonstrate His sovereignty concerning what He has revealed in the Bible, not anything He has not revealed.
                  Originally posted by Cornelius View Post
                  If "his children" are not "his people" then children must not be people?
                  God at times used hyperbolic expressions (i.e. hen and chicks - Mat 22:37) relating Himself as a father to a child to denote special significance, i.e. Jerm 31:9, 30. But son-ship in God was not possible until Christ (Eph 1:5). It was then we could pray "Our Father." The prior dispensation was used to lead others into son-ship (Gal 4:5), until Christ (Gal 3:24, 25). Hence the absence in the OT of the phrase "children of God," but rather it was "the children of Israel."

                  The Body of Christ represents not only a "people of God," (1Pet 2:10; Heb 4:9; 11:25) but as children as well.
                  Last edited by NetChaplain; 01-27-2016, 08:53 AM.
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                  • #10
                    I would like to continue to let it be stated (not suspecting anyone), and though we already know, that concerning one’s accepted doctrine (regardless the depth of a truth) about any teaching, it is always second to the doctrine of godly love to others. Thus when we sometimes are distracted from this mindset (to which all are prone due to numerous causes, pride being the primary culprit - 1Cor 8:1) we benefit best by keeping this most important teaching of our Lord Jesus (John 15:12) as prioritized as possible, thereby obviously yielding more consistently to God’s guidance and usage.

                    I believe it is also noteworthy to know and remember that as we share with one another it is helpful to realize the difference in significance between doctrines that involve receiving faith in salvation, and doctrines that involve growing in faith in salvation. For all intended purposes and clarity the prior can be referred to as “essential doctrine” and the latter “nonessential doctrine.”

                    Though the phrase nonessential may appear to present negative connotations I believe it is imperative to differentiate their purposes, because being saved is obviously antecedent to spiritual growth, as there must be union before there can be fellowship, and one can be in union with God but not in fellowship with Him, which state would be temporary due to His “work” in everyone joined to Him (Phil 2:13).

                    I strongly suspect that the purpose of all of the difficult-to-clearly-interpret Bible passages are to require us to seek God for understanding through ongoing Bible study, and to teach us to grow in maintaining our bonds of love to one another (Rom 13:8) through the disagreements, for if the goal of sharing with one another is other than this, it “profits” us “nothing” (1Cor 13:3), and “speaking the truth in love” results in “growing up into Him in all things” (Eph 4:15).

                    Concerning Scripture that is related to the prophecies and doctrines of the Jewish nation, I do not presently see that the Bible is clear enough to attribute enough credibility to affirm any of the teachings concerning the nation of Israel’s eschatology. It could be that God desires to show us Himself later concerning this part of His plans for them. I myself have strong suspicions concerning these teachings, and since they are presently only suspicions I do not mind continuing to share them and seeing other's beliefs and suspicions concerning their teachings.

                    With Love in Christ and God’s blessings to the families of the Saints!

                    NC (Robert Hall)
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