Apologetics may be simply defined as the defense of the Christian faith. The word "apologetics" derives from the Greek word apologia, which was originally used as a speech of defense.

Predestination vs Free will

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  • Predestination vs Free will

    Predestination vs free will salvation is a serious topic, I don't believe in predestination for many reasons and I would like to make my case. First the belief that some were created destined for heaven while others were created destined for hell contradicts God's nature. God is love above all else he loved the world so much he sent his one and only son to die for us, now many know the pain of losing a child imagine how God must have felt to see his son be brutally beaten mocked tortured and killed. The pain he must have felt must have been unbearable and yet he allowed it because he loved us and wanted us to be saved, If Jesus died for only a chosen people then his sacrifice was in vain in my opinion because then some ppl no matter what they do could never be saved and will go to hell. This doesn't sound like God at all it's not what a loving father does in fact it's down right unfair and horrible. I believe free will has the power to change our fate fort instance listen to this

    Joshua 24:15 And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.” (Notice how he said Choose)

    And also John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. ( he said whoever not some or a certain ppl)

    Romans 10:13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” ( notice he said everyone)


  • #2
    We have a problem. I use the KJV, which translates verses differently from the ESV. The KJV in Romans 10:13 KJV. "whosoever shall call..." vs. "everyone who calls on the..." mean two different things. One could be misconstrued to go so far as believing in universal salvation, the other is factually presented meaning"anyone" not "everyone". The difference in Bible translations is going to be a problem. I don't know how to respond yet because of this fact.

    Personally, I do not like the ESV. I like the old Bibles like KJV, Geneva, Douay-Rheems. If one were to believe in free will, why would God give some the will to choose salvation and others not? Why would God be sovereign in all other respects, but leave perhaps the most important thing, our eternal destinies, up to us, all of whom are at enmity against God and do not seek Him out? How can we seek Him out if we don't seek Him out, unless God intervenes by His choice and causes us to come unto Him - Psalm 65:4 KJV?

    (The "KJV" is in there because of technical reasons. The site's default is the ESV, so I have to put "KJV" after my reference so the pop-up will be in that version.)
    Comment>

    • #3
      Originally posted by FireHeart View Post
      Predestination vs free will salvation is a serious topic, I don't believe in predestination for many reasons and I would like to make my case. First the belief that some were created destined for heaven while others were created destined for hell contradicts God's nature. God is love above all else he loved the world so much he sent his one and only son to die for us, now many know the pain of losing a child imagine how God must have felt to see his son be brutally beaten mocked tortured and killed. The pain he must have felt must have been unbearable and yet he allowed it because he loved us and wanted us to be saved, If Jesus died for only a chosen people then his sacrifice was in vain in my opinion because then some ppl no matter what they do could never be saved and will go to hell. This doesn't sound like God at all it's not what a loving father does in fact it's down right unfair and horrible. I believe free will has the power to change our fate fort instance listen to this

      Joshua 24:15 And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.” (Notice how he said Choose)

      And also John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. ( he said whoever not some or a certain ppl)

      Romans 10:13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” ( notice he said everyone)
      Hi Fireheart,

      Are you defining free will as having a choice or an ability to choose? Or are you defining free will in an autonomous sense, as in an ability to choose contrary to one's nature? Another words, if you are given the choice to flap your arms like a bird and fly do you consider yourself free to do so or do you consider yourself bound to your human nature? Do you acknowledge man having a sin nature? Do you believe, a) man is good and need of guidance, b) man is sick and in need of a doctor, c) man is dead in sin and trespass and in need of a Savior?

      The only place in the Bible I'll acknowledge autonomous will or "free will" comes forth from the serpent, Genesis 3:5 - "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

      The two lies:
      1. Eve would be like gods, and thus independent, able to rule over herself apart from God.
      2. There is not one God, but many gods; each is sovereign over himself or herself.


      Do you believe the serpent truthful Fireheart?

      All men fall in Adam, without exception; so that there is no election or non-election to the fall itself, but only to deliverance from it. Men are elected from out of a state of sin (predestination); and men are passed by and left in a state of sin.

      I acknowledge, Fireheart that you quoted John 3:16, and yet left out the following verse John 3:18. It appears that you quoted a partial context. God so loved the world.... stop. When the text says God so loved the world..... in this way.... that He gave His beloved Son that whosoever believes in Him.... and we know from John 3:18 that there are exceptions. Thus, John 3:16 means God so loved the world (every tribe tongue and nation without distinction) rather than "loved the world without exception", because John 3:18 gives an exception.Condemnation is earned by human disobedience, again, men fall in Adam.

      Curious, are you making a case against predestination by arguing double predestination?

      God bless,
      William
      Comment>

      • #4
        Originally posted by FireHeart View Post
        I believe free will has the power to change our fate fort instance listen to this

        Joshua 24:15 And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.” (Notice how he said Choose)

        And also John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. ( he said whoever not some or a certain ppl)

        Romans 10:13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” ( notice he said everyone)
        Hello and God Bless, FireHeart. I believe Free Will is often an illusion. We feel free when we don't feel forced, but that doesn't mean we're free. Asking the lost to choose salvation is like asking them to flap their arms and fly (I like that analogy). I was taught God meets us halfway, but now I believe God has to come all the way to us for us to be saved.

        Joshua instructed people to choose to serve God (BTW, "serve" not "believe"). But, I think this is rhetorical. Those people were already saved, and Joshua was just urging them to clean up their hypocrisy. It's no different than when we try to get fellow believers to clean up hypocrisy in their lives. If you're doing something ungodly, and I want to encourage you to deal with that ungodly something, I might say to you, "Choose who you're going to serve."

        Whoever believes or calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved, but it is God who compels people to believe or call upon the name of the Lord.

        ****

        I agree that Predestination vs. Freewill is important. But, why do you think it's important? If we don't get out there and share the Gospel, people will be lost? That's a burden I can't bare. I'd feel obligated to agree with Muslim strategy of executing people who preach against Islam, but in this case, those who preach against Christ. What's it worth to save a soul from eternal judgement? Surely, putting down a false teacher is nothing in the big picture, like shooting a vicious dog to save children. It wouldn't be murder, but the ultimate in self-defense. Even if you don't want to kill a vicious dog, the point still stands, why do most people who believe in Free Will do so little to save others, given that eternal souls are at stake?




        Comment>

        • #5
          Originally posted by Stratcat View Post
          We have a problem. I use the KJV, which translates verses differently from the ESV. The KJV in Romans 10:13 KJV. "whosoever shall call..." vs. "everyone who calls on the..." mean two different things. One could be misconstrued to go so far as believing in universal salvation, the other is factually presented meaning"anyone" not "everyone". The difference in Bible translations is going to be a problem. I don't know how to respond yet because of this fact.

          Personally, I do not like the ESV. I like the old Bibles like KJV, Geneva, Douay-Rheems. If one were to believe in free will, why would God give some the will to choose salvation and others not? Why would God be sovereign in all other respects, but leave perhaps the most important thing, our eternal destinies, up to us, all of whom are at enmity against God and do not seek Him out? How can we seek Him out if we don't seek Him out, unless God intervenes by His choice and causes us to come unto Him - Psalm 65:4 KJV?

          (The "KJV" is in there because of technical reasons. The site's default is the ESV, so I have to put "KJV" after my reference so the pop-up will be in that version.)
          Bible translation is sometimes an issue but as far as everyone and and anyone or whosoever vs everyone this is not an issue I think because both are saying if anyone calls upon him he will answer
          Comment>

          • #6
            Originally posted by William View Post

            Hi Fireheart,

            Are you defining free will as having a choice or an ability to choose? Or are you defining free will in an autonomous sense, as in an ability to choose contrary to one's nature? Another words, if you are given the choice to flap your arms like a bird and fly do you consider yourself free to do so or do you consider yourself bound to your human nature? Do you acknowledge man having a sin nature? Do you believe, a) man is good and need of guidance, b) man is sick and in need of a doctor, c) man is dead in sin and trespass and in need of a Savior?

            The only place in the Bible I'll acknowledge autonomous will or "free will" comes forth from the serpent, Genesis 3:5 - "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

            The two lies:
            1. Eve would be like gods, and thus independent, able to rule over herself apart from God.
            2. There is not one God, but many gods; each is sovereign over himself or herself.



            Do you believe the serpent truthful Fireheart?

            All men fall in Adam, without exception; so that there is no election or non-election to the fall itself, but only to deliverance from it. Men are elected from out of a state of sin (predestination); and men are passed by and left in a state of sin.

            I acknowledge, Fireheart that you quoted John 3:16, and yet left out the following verse John 3:18. It appears that you quoted a partial context. God so loved the world.... stop. When the text says God so loved the world..... in this way.... that He gave His beloved Son that whosoever believes in Him.... and we know from John 3:18 that there are exceptions. Thus, John 3:16 means God so loved the world (every tribe tongue and nation without distinction) rather than "loved the world without exception", because John 3:18 gives an exception.Condemnation is earned by human disobedience, again, men fall in Adam.

            Curious, are you making a case against predestination by arguing double predestination?

            God bless,
            William
            I am defining free will as an ability to choose to accept God's gift of salvation, I am not talking about our human nature. God has offered us his love and mercy his salvation and care but we have to choose to accept it he isn't going to force us to take it, we will always have to deal with our sinful nature as long as we are in the flesh but his grace is more than enough. I don't know what you mean by double predestination but if you believe in predestination do you believe some were created destined for heaven while others were destined for hell?
            Comment>

            • #7
              We don't save souls when we preach - God giveth the increase. We plant and water. We preach the Gospel which is that Jesus died that we might live and not die in our sins. We believe in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ to be saved. Preaching the Gospel is not telling people to choose anything, but to state the facts as the Bible does. Whosoever believeth on Him shall not perish but have everlasting life. That is not telling anything about choice, but facts. What? Can we surprise God or go outside of His control and foreknowledge? Aren't the names of the saved written in the Lamb's Book of Life from the foundation of the world? Those not in there are predestined to perdition. - Revelation 17:8 KJV

              While God says He so loved the world, does He not also say "love not the world nor the things in the world?" Jesus at the garden of Gethsename prayed to the Father not for the world but for "those that are thine." Then says He has chosen us out of the world. God says love our enemies, so naturally God loves all His enemies too, yet He punishes them eternally. Loving doesn't mean saving. One must be loved to be saved but one doesn't necessarily get saved just because they are loved, evidently. The confusion is further brought out in that there are four different kinds of love and different meanings for the word "world" from the Greek to English and within the Greek text itself.

              There is much to say about predestination because the Bible has much to say about it, but it does not teach free will. Our wills are in a condition much like Cornelius described above. All things are predestined from the foundation of the world. Jesus was to die for our sins before the world was created! - Revelation 13:8 KJV Free will is a perception, not a reality. Cornelius covered the choosing aspect quite well.
              Comment>

              • #8
                Originally posted by FireHeart View Post
                I am defining free will as an ability to choose to accept God's gift of salvation, I am not talking about our human nature.
                Without Regeneration man is no more capable of responding to God’s offer of salvation than a corpse is of responding to an offer of a fine meal. Can a person come to Christ apart from any help from the Spirit? The Scripture says that "no one can say "Jesus is Lord" except in the Holy Spirit" - 1 Corinthians 12:3. The natural man is void of the Holy Spirit and therefore is dead to spiritual things.

                Men of themselves are incapable and cannot accept God's gift of salvation:
                • John 3:27 - John answered, "A person cannot receive even one thing unless it is given him from heaven."
                • John 14:16-17 - "And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him."
                • John 1:12-13 - But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
                • John 6:44,65 - "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day." And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
                • Romans 9:16 - So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
                • Romans 11:35-36 - "Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid?" For from him and through him and to him are all things.
                • 1 Corinthians 1:30 - And because of him you are in Christ Jesus
                • Philippians 2:13 - for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.


                God bless,
                William
                Comment>
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