Apologetics may be simply defined as the defense of the Christian faith. The word "apologetics" derives from the Greek word apologia, which was originally used as a speech of defense.

Thoughts and Opinions on the Old Testement Commands

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  • Thoughts and Opinions on the Old Testement Commands

    Originally posted by Lucian Hodoboc View Post
    If I didn't come to that conclusion, I wouldn't be able to be a Christian in the first place because I completely disagree with most of God's commandments from the Old Testament. I just accept them as rules given my someone who is superior in power and whom fighting against would be futile and end in my destruction.
    I hope you don't think that I am in some way picking on you, but I just found this statement utterly fascinating and wanted to ask you about it and generally talk about the OT commands with anyone that wants to talk. I suggest for this conversation, we remember the motto of the Moravian Church:

    In essentials unity. In non-essentials liberty. In all things charity.

    In other words, we are all Christians here, so let's try to act like it. This is not a salvation issue!

    You disagree with "most" of God's commandments?

    That seems like a strong statement. I assume that it isn't the first ten that you have trouble with ... that you don't think it is none of God's business if you steal or sleep with your neighbor's wife or offer a few prayers to a gold idol.
    I assume it is some of the other 600+ commands that you take exception to.
    If you don't mind my asking ... Which commands do you have a beef with?


    Since I am asking you, I guess it is only fair to put my money where my mouth is. I hold the slightly unpopular (around here) belief that all 613 of the OT laws are superfluous. Some are redacted (God said eat whatever you want). Some are inapplicable (I got my sack of flour and two doves ... where is the Altar and the Priest). Most, and all that matter, are covered with the two Jesus gave ... Luke 10:27 So he answered and said, “‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,' and ‘your neighbor as yourself.' ”
    I do not see how any person can violate one of the ten commandments and still keep the commandments of Luke 10:27. On the other hand, Jesus' sermons and teachings clearly demonstrated that it was quite possible to remain within the letter of the 10 commandments, but violate the commandments of Luke 10:27.

    Matthew 5:27-28 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

    So I do not allow myself to be bound by the minutiae of the law and allow it to take my eye off the higher calling of the New Covenant and its two Commandments that encompass and exceed all 613 of the old ones.
    [On the other hand, I can't say I particularly disagree with the prohibition on cutting yourself for the dead, or have a moral objection to tassels ... two of the 613 commands.]
    Last edited by atpollard; 05-19-2017, 10:45 AM.

  • #2
    Personally, I think the law is beautiful. And if it were an image reflected in the mirror before me it would be everything I wished to be.

    The churches of the Reformation from the very beginning distinguished between the law and gospel as the two parts of the Word of God as a means of grace. This distinction was not understood to be identified with that between the Old and the New Testament, but was regarded as a distinction that applies to both Testaments. There is law and gospel in the Old Testament, and there is law and gospel in the New. - Louis Befkoff
    Just emphasizing that Law is not restricted to the OT. The NT expounds and emphasizes on many laws. For example, the "two greatest commandments" are not new. They are the most important commandments but have roots from the OT:
    • Deuteronomy 6:5, “You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might."
    • Leviticus 19:18, "You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the LORD."

    Isn't it amazing how many people look at the NT as a means of Grace and reject the Laws of the OT? These laws were given in the OT and were emphasized as being the most important laws spoken by Jesus. The ten commandments can be divided into two tables. The first greatest commandment, if fulfilled perfectly, results in keeping the first half of the Ten, and second the second table.

    But of course, since the law includes loving God and loving our neighbors, those parts of the law must be fulfilled perfectly. It was Jesus who fulfilled the law without failure. So, we receive by faith what Christ did - which includes loving God and loving our neighbor. Therefore, everything we need is found in Jesus.
    • Romans 6:15 What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!

    God bless,
    William
    Comment>

    • #3
      Originally posted by atpollard View Post
      I hope you don't think that I am in some way picking on you, but I just found this statement utterly fascinating and wanted to ask you about it and generally talk about the OT commands with anyone that wants to talk. I suggest for this conversation, we remember the motto of the Moravian Church:

      In essentials unity. In non-essentials liberty. In all things charity.

      In other words, we are all Christians here, so let's try to act like it. This is not a salvation issue!

      You disagree with "most" of God's commandments?

      That seems like a strong statement. I assume that it isn't the first ten that you have trouble with ... that you don't think it is none of God's business if you steal or sleep with your neighbor's wife or offer a few prayers to a gold idol.
      I assume it is some of the other 600+ commands that you take exception to.
      If you don't mind my asking ... Which commands do you have a beef with?


      Since I am asking you, I guess it is only fair to put my money where my mouth is. I hold the slightly unpopular (around here) belief that all 613 of the OT laws are superfluous. Some are redacted (God said eat whatever you want). Some are inapplicable (I got my sack of flour and two doves ... where is the Altar and the Priest). Most, and all that matter, are covered with the two Jesus gave ... Luke 10:27 So he answered and said, “‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,' and ‘your neighbor as yourself.' ”
      I do not see how any person can violate one of the ten commandments and still keep the commandments of Luke 10:27. On the other hand, Jesus' sermons and teachings clearly demonstrated that it was quite possible to remain within the letter of the 10 commandments, but violate the commandments of Luke 10:27.

      Matthew 5:27-28 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

      So I do not allow myself to be bound by the minutiae of the law and allow it to take my eye off the higher calling of the New Covenant and its two Commandments that encompass and exceed all 613 of the old ones.
      [On the other hand, I can't say I particularly disagree with the prohibition on cutting yourself for the dead, or have a moral objection to tassels ... two of the 613 commands.]
      The first two commandments go against human psychology. How do you force yourself to love someone? The very definition of love implies that it cannot be forced. It either exists or it doesn't. Feelings of affection can develop in time through certain means of interaction, but what kind of interaction can someone have with a being who rarely, if ever, gives any sign of existence? Yes, we pray, yes, we follow His commandments, but when you keep praying and you get no answer, no sign, no manifestation of His existence that you can clearly discern, our instincts kick in and we start to believe that if God exists then our relationship with Him is one-sided, so that makes forcing yourself to love someone who doesn't show signs of reciprocating your love even more difficult, if not downright impossible. If you define love as a feeling in your heart towards God (like the feeling you have towards your crush, with which you want to spend as much time as possible because his/her presence makes you happy), then psychologically speaking, it is impossible to force yourself to have feelings that you simply don't have. However, if you define love as (what Jesus suggested) keeping God's commandments against your own will and trying to abstain from sinning as much as possible, then yes, that type of love is possible.
      Comment>

      • #4
        Your post above doesn't seem to make a distinction between Eros (romantic love), Philos(companionable love), and Agape (spiritual love). There's been some confusion because English only has the one word, and it may describe all the principles or any one without any indicator. You seem to be discussing Philos above, but Agape does not rely on interaction, it is the love of the spiritual, love as a guiding principle rather than purely a feeling. Paul Coelho wrote a piece on it, but it is a principle in many Christian sects including the Orthodox church.
        * This is by far the most famous neo-classical sculpture ever commissioned. It was sculpted by Antonio Canova. It was first commissioned in 1787. * “What type of love do you mean: Eros, Philia or Agape?” The man looked at him without understanding a word. “There are three words in Greek to designate love,” Petrus said.…
        Comment>
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