Apologetics may be simply defined as the defense of the Christian faith. The word "apologetics" derives from the Greek word apologia, which was originally used as a speech of defense.

Predestination issues

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  • Predestination issues

    Hello my friends. I am a follower of Protestant Church here in Croatia. I dont want to tell my parents but i think that predestionation doctrine is blasfemy. Especially after a friend of mine who just calls himself as "Follower of Christ" gave me this revelations to read. Should I tell my parents there is no predestionation and that Jesus Christ died for us all?

    This is what I have read:


    You are all chosen to become sanctified, however, you decide the time yourselves when the kingdom of light can receive you. Thus the being can indeed endeavour to return to the abyss time after time, and it can prolong its path of return to Me endlessly, it can certainly remain eternally in a pitiful state, at a distance from Me which it cannot bridge with its own strength, and hence one could call it a kind of damnation, but this has not been inflicted on the being by My will, rather it was its own will to throw itself into this state .... Nevertheless, even the darkest being will come to the light one day, and even My adversary will eventually find himself in the light of My sun of love again, and My ray of love will fill him with immeasurable joy .... But it will take an eternity yet before he abandons his resistance to Me. And hence there will also be beings who will repeatedly hand themselves over to his force, whose resistance to Me does not falter and who are therefore eternally wretched, albeit they will always have the opportunity to take hold of My hand which will draw them home into the Father’s house. And I know the fate of every soul, yet it constantly receives My grace, and during the stage of human being I shall always withdraw My will, so that its will can make an entirely free decision.

    For this reason it is wrong to say that a soul’s fate is destined by Me for blissfulness or damnation .... It is wrong, because I Myself want to draw all human beings to Me and for this very reason have died on the cross for all people. The fact that I know the fate of every single soul does not mean that I determine its will .... If it was up to My will alone, all souls would truly have returned into their Father’s house already, since the power and strength for this is certainly at My disposal. Thus I could never have destined a human soul for damnation .... It would never ‘please’ Me to plunge a soul into perdition again, because I Am Love Itself ....

    Only an unenlightened spirit can understand the words of the Gospel so wrongly, and only an unenlightened spirit can interpret them such that I Myself choose or abandon souls to become blessed or condemned. You humans are entirely free to decide as you wish, and thus you also create your own fate after the death of your body. You can be blissfully happy without limitation, but you can also create the fate of damnation for yourselves, because I do not force you in any way, just as you cannot be forced by My adversary .... no matter how powerful he is .... But during your lifetime on earth you have indeed unlimited blessings at your disposal which I have acquired for you by My death on the cross. Therefore you need not be helpless .... Nevertheless, only your freedom of will determines your thoughts, will and actions, and you certainly would not have free will if your fate after your death had already been predetermined by Me.

    You are all called .... but the fact that only few are chosen is entirely due to the free will of the human being, and not because of randomly given blessings. This misguided opinion must continuously be refuted, since it causes a paralysing effect on many people, who then do not have the blissful certainty that they can reach their goal on earth, and who consequently only strive half-heartedly. You must always remember that I Am a God of love, wisdom and power .... and a doctrine which calls any of these into question is misguided .... But how can you reconcile My love with the teaching that I bless or condemn according to ‘My pleasure’? Therefore you should seriously endeavour not to postpone the hour of your salvation, because you yourselves determine the time of your return to Me, when I can re-admit you into your Father’s house ....


    This also:

    No one should say or believe that they did not receive the same blessings as some of their fellow human beings and that therefore their ascent on earth was not made as easy for them as that of other people .... This is a misguided point of view which is completely unwarranted. You have to know that you are within the midst of an emission of grace and that you can all immerse yourselves within it to experience the effect of grace at its full strength .... but that it is your free will to either accept this effect or to withdraw from the flow of divine love and hence remain untouched .... And first of all you also have to be informed about the fact that the divine Redeemer Jesus Christ died on the cross for all human beings, that by dying He acquired a treasure of grace for all people, thus all people can share the blessings of the act of Salvation if they believe in Him .... And one of the blessings of the act of Salvation is the strengthening of the will .... Thus anyone who believes in the divine Redeemer Jesus Christ and asks Him for salvation will receive this .... And now the strengthened will is also using the blessings which are flowing towards it ....

    But even he who does not believe yet will receive unlimited blessings because God’s love is infinite, and he too is meant to find the path to Jesus Christ. But the will, which is still inherently weak, will rarely allow itself to be touched by the emission of grace; the people will shut themselves off from the gifts of grace, and thus the latter will not be able to have any effect because any kind of resistance will negate it. But neither can the person claim that it is impossible for him to make full use of a gift of grace. Because he can direct his will as he likes .... i.e. towards God or .... if he cannot recognise Him as yet .... towards good. Then he will already be seized by God’s love and guided a step forward. And he will also soon learn to recognise that he, in a manner of speaking and if he offers no inner resistance, will be carried .... guided, directed, towards these blessings. Time and again emissions of grace will flow to him, and if he accepts their effect he will very soon realise that he too is remarkably blessed, but that his own will has allowed this to happen ....

    Thus unlimited blessings are at the disposal of all you humans, because God’s emission of grace will never cease .... But it is also up to you as to how and whether you accept and use the effect of the blessings. God’s love is for all His living creations, and particularly those who are still in opposition to Him require many blessings, but the blessings will never have a compelling effect. Freedom of will, therefore, also explains the difference between people on earth, but not the variably strong influx of blessings. And the point of view that God has already determined which people will be blessed or condemned is even more misguided ....

    This doctrine questions God’s love, it invalidates Jesus Christ’s act of Salvation, which was accomplished for all human beings, and it would also completely undermine people’s aspiration for perfection .... But with just a little good will and faith this misguided teaching can be recognised as such because ‘God’s essence’, the utmost ‘perfection’ will appear to be questionable. It would also call the human being’s free will into question and therefore the whole purpose of earthly life .... which is entirely due to the free decision of the will. To make this decision of will and the being’s return to blissfulness possible, God’s emission of grace will constantly flow to people .... Therefore every human being can achieve bliss by merely accepting and utilizing the blessings. Although the blessings are indeed an undeserved gift for people, because they once had deliberately separated themselves from God’s love and with this sin had discarded everything they owned as God’s living creation, but God’s love is greater and therefore it offers the fallen living creations time and again the means which enable them to return to Him .... It distributes its blessings without restrictions .... But these blessings will never effect or restrict the freedom of will .... Nevertheless, the maturing of human beings’ on earth is always subject to the acceptance of these blessings but not dependent on the amount which flows to each and every human being ....


    Thank you my friends, Jesus loves you :D

  • #2
    First a couple of ground rules are probably in order ...
    • Who is God? Do you believe in a God who is Real, All-Powerful, All-Knowing, Everywhere, In Charge and lived, died and was ressurected as the person Jesus Christ? It is important to start with a correct view of God.
    • Is the Bible true, correct, reliable? If I have an idea and the Bible says something different, which is probably correct?


    Without settling these issues in your mind, this will just be a lot of electrons flung through space.

    Short answer, Predestination is not blasphemy. God himself says that we are predestined through the writings of his Apostle Paul.

    Romans 8:28-30 [NIV] And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

    Ephesians 1:3-14 [NIV] Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.

    In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.


    Your friendly "Follower of Christ" should really place more trust in God's word (the Holy Bible). Fortunately, you have come to the right place to ask your question.
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    • #3
      Originally posted by TruthIsLove55 View Post
      Jesus Christ died for us all?
      Could you provide a scripture from the Bible that you think teaches this?
      Then give us a chance to talk about that scripture and see if you still feel that way.

      As a simple logic test, try this:
      1. The wages of sin is death (eternal separation from God)
      2. Assume that Jesus died for all sin.
      3. Then all sins have been paid for on the Cross.
      4. God has no grounds to condemn anyone of any sin.
      5. Even if I continue to sin, the sin debt has been paid.
      6. Whether I sin or obey God, I will go to heaven (because the debt has been paid.)
      7. If God does punish me for my unrepentant sin, then God will have claimed double payment for my sin.
      8. If Jesus died for all sin, then God must forgive all or be unjust.
      9. However, God has said that some will be punished ... so Is God UNJUST or a LIAR?



      [Or just maybe, Jesus never claimed to die for every person in the world, but only those whose sins were forgiven.]
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      • #4
        God does not Predestine people to hell, as in God created them and actively blocked their acceptance of his offer of grace to those who repent. So in that aspect you are correct. However your explanation of God's view fails to properly understand either God or Man and their respective roles and responsibilities. I look forward to clarification of your view of God and Scripture.
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        • #5
          Thank you for the answer atpollard
          • Yes
          • Yes it is, although some damage was made through
          1.) trancripts over the 2000 years period (eg. Matthew 6:14…adding and subducting on more then few places in the Holy Bible) – that is actually not so much of a problem

          2.) Translations, because I think those are personal opinions of the person translating allegedly authentic text (we can see how many Bibles there are, and I read enviable number ofthem so I can se difference)

          3.) Interpretations – the greatest harm is done right here, because you cant read Scripture while your Spirit is not awaken…““ – 2 Corinthians 3:6 (I can not grasp how are people missing this)

          Predestination teaching is preposterous when we have:
          John 3:16
          • 16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life (I dont think he meant for the choosen one's)
          2 Peter 3:9
          • 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

          And on many more places in the Scripture predestination sounds to me as we have „stupid“ God who doesnt know how to (lack of wisdom) save all his children, or he does not have enough love or strenht to do so. We both know that is not the case.

          When I read the Bible I pray and ask God to enlighten me because I know nothing on my own. The Spirit is Truth. We can not comprehend Holy Word with our mind, that is a spiritual process. That is why there are few thousands of christian churches around the globe (2 Corinthians 3:6).


          God is Love (1 John 4:8, 16), not some strict arbiter.

          My vision of true christianity is Matthew 16:24-26:
          24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
          25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
          26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

          …and John 13:34
          34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

          Everything else is losing time, especially in these last days.


          We are on Earth to change our deviant nature we have as fallen beings. We need to get rid of our diabolicaly elements and come back to where we once decided to fall away using our free will. So now we need to change our nature to Love, Love that is shown to us by Creator Himself, through Jesus Christ. It is so simple. God did not create us just so some of us who are lucky to go to heavens, and majority to go to eternal hell (which is not eternal, it is an educational and correctional measure, but we will all come back to him evetually). People who are „ok“ with some people destined to eternal torture while they „enjoy“ just shows the lack of love in their hearths.

          eg. Your son lived and died completely without Jesus…Are you ok with him suffering for eternity…No you are not, you would like to help him. And God who is full of love contrary to us wouldnt want that?

          Also there is John 16:25, and He showed me the text I was given were His words to his completely lost children here on Earth. We dont know him anymore at all. Matthew 24:12…that is the situation outside :(



          I look forward to your answer my friend :D
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          • #6
            Originally posted by TruthIsLove55 View Post
            Predestination teaching is preposterous when we have:
            John 3:16
            • 16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life (I dont think he meant for the choosen one's)


            2 Peter 3:9
            • 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

            What is "predestination teaching"?

            I have Romans 8:28-30 [NIV] "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified." which doesn't sound at all 'preposterous' to me.

            I also have Romans 10:9-10 [NIV] "If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved." and Ephesians 2:1-10 [NIV] "As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

            Taken together, I see a very reasonable claim that "while we were still dead in sin" and unable to save ourselves, God already loved us enough to "prepare in advance" both "good works" for us to do and faith for us to receive "by grace". If we have to work for it, then it is not grace (by the definition of grace). Thus the only 'work' required to be saved, is to believe "with your heart" and "profess your faith" ... but it was God who gave you a new heart (Ezekiel 36:26 [NIV] "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.") and it was God who gave you faith (Ephesians 2:8 [NIV] "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—").



            What does it mean in Hebrews 12:2 that Jesus is the "pioneer and perfecter" of our faith?
            I see Scripture as painting a clear picture of a mighty God ... Mighty in Grace, Mighty in Love for the undeserving, Mighty to finish what he starts, Mighty to work all things to his will and for his Glory.
            My God does not wring his hands with a trembling lip desperately hoping that the great free will of man will allow him to forgive them. God did not ask Abram "so would you be willing to be my people? If you do I , God, promise to make it worth your while. Think about it a few days and get back with me." Rather God chose Abram and said:

            “Go from your country, your people and your father’s household to the land I will show you. I will make you into a great nation,and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.”

            Genesis 12:4 So Abram went ...

            That is 'predestination'. A sovereign God does as he pleases and asks no permission ... for our good and his glory.

            Exodus 33:19 (Romans 9:15) [NIV] And the LORD said, “I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the LORD, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.


            Soli Deo gloria ("glory to God alone")
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            • #7
              Originally posted by TruthIsLove55 View Post
              We are on Earth to change our deviant nature we have as fallen beings. We need to get rid of our diabolical elements and come back to where we once decided to fall away using our free will. So now we need to change our nature to Love, Love that is shown to us by Creator Himself, through Jesus Christ.
              Respectfully, when were we ever good? When did we ever exercise free will to move away from our innate goodness?
              At what age do parents teach their children to lie? To steal? To murder? Yet every infant screams and throws food they don't like or an empty bottle when they are angry and want more ... all without needing to be taught this evil by their parents. The fact is that it is a lot of work to teach children to share and to not take toys from other children and to tell the truth. Evil comes naturally, it is good that must be learned.

              Your basic model is flawed.


              Originally posted by TruthIsLove55 View Post
              It is so simple. God did not create us just so some of us who are lucky to go to heavens, and majority to go to eternal hell
              'Luck' is what you propose. Those who are 'lucky' will hear the gospel. Those who are lucky will have it explained clearly by another human being. Those who are lucky will not grow weary. If we are all VERY VERY lucky, then you are correct and God didn't mean all those terrible warnings that he placed in scripture about those who reject the Son.

              The Bible says "ALL" have sinned. ALL deserve punishment for our rebellion against a holy God. Justice demands our eternal separation, that we be burned in God's trash heap like the corpse of some unclean animal outside the walls of Jerusalem. God's Mercy created a way for Man to be redeemed, but our fallen nature means that all men will exercise their free will and do what is in their heart ... they will reject God's offer and perish. God's LOVE is so great that he chose (for reasons that remain a mystery, but have nothing to do with us and everything to do with God) to save some in spite of themselves. With a new God Given Heart and a new God Given Faith, our free will now desires to do the things of God and we can do good. However, the good we do is not so that we might be saved, it is because we already are saved.

              LUCK has nothing to do with it. Most get JUSTICE and some get MERCY. Through it all, God remains HOLY and SOVEREIGN.


              Originally posted by TruthIsLove55 View Post
              (which is not eternal, it is an educational and correctional measure, but we will all come back to him eventually).
              I look forward to eventually seeing the scripture verses to support this.


              Originally posted by TruthIsLove55 View Post
              People who are „ok“ with some people destined to eternal torture while they „enjoy“ just shows the lack of love in their hearts.
              No argument to the extent that no one I know celebrates the idea of another person going to Hell that does not have serious mental health issues.
              On the other hand, I know a person from Sudan who saw his father macheted by Muslims before the rest of his village was herded into a hut and burned alive for being Christian. He carried a 4 year old child on his back for over a year as a few children escaped through the jungle to a refugee camp in Kenya.

              Do those people deserve no justice at all?

              Revelation 6:10 [NIV] They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?”
              Comment>

              • #8


                I see the spirit inside of you is not awaken yet so you are not competent to expound the Scripture.

                2 Corinthians 3:6

                Although your endeavor to read Scripture and know God is commendable.

                1 Corinthians 13

                Love you guys...

                They will kill a world leader soon, When that happens youll know where to look for :)

                Bertha Dudde - Revelation 4493

                Btw this forum is amazing, I mean interface and design. Everything looks really nice and works smoothly.

                Thank you for the answers guys.
                Comment>

                • #9
                  Originally posted by TruthIsLove55
                  Thank you for the answers guys.

                  I see the spirit inside of you is not awaken yet so you are not competent to expound the Scripture.

                  2 Corinthians 3:6

                  Although your endeavor to read Scripture and know God is commendable.

                  1 Corinthians 13

                  Love you guys...

                  They will kill a world leader soon, When that happens youll know where to look for :)

                  Bertha Dudde - Revelation 4493
                  Originally posted by TruthIsLove55 View Post
                  Btw this forum is amazing, I mean interface and design. Everything looks really nice and works smoothly.

                  And in order to keep the board really nice and working smoothly (by design through moderation), we do not allow cult followers membership. Thank you for applying.

                  Bye Bye.

                  William
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