What is the Rapture?

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    #46
    Originally posted by JulieB67 View Post
    But this shouldn't take away the fact that only a portion of the 144, 000 in Rev are Jewish.
    Revelation 7:4-8 NASB
    4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:
    5 from the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand, from the tribe of Gad twelve thousand,
    6 from the tribe of Asher twelve thousand, from the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand, from the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand,
    7 from the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand, from the tribe of Levi twelve thousand, from the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand,
    8 from the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand, from the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand, from the tribe of Benjamin, twelve thousand were sealed.

    There may have been more than 144,000 on the ‘great multitude’ of Revelation 7:9 and they clearly included more than just biological Israelites, but the 144,000 were specifically sealed and they were from specific Tribes of Israel ... making them all ‘Jewish’ in modern parlance (since we don’t generally distinguish between sons of Judah and sons of Levi in modern society, they are all collectively called ‘Jewish’).

    I have no idea how much God wants me to read this part as symbolic numerology and how much it is a simple statement of fact, but the gist is clear ... God will protect some specific Messianic Jews through the tribulation in which a great multitude will suffer and many (most) will be martyred.

    Comment


    • Fastfredy0
      Fastfredy0 commented
      Editing a comment
      Allegorized interpretations are not based on anything objective. They can’t be verified. They are based solely on the subjective preferences and whims of the interpreter’s imagination. This becomes obvious when you hear another person teach on the same passage and they have an entirely different twist on the story. One person says that such and such a thing represents this, while another person says it really represents this. This is one of the reasons allegorized interpretations are dangerous. There are no guidelines, or boundaries.
      IMO

    #47
    Originally posted by atpollard View Post
    . making them all ‘Jewish’ in modern parlance (since we don’t generally distinguish between sons of Judah and sons of Levi in modern society, they are all collectively called ‘Jewish’).
    I realize that traditions over the years doesn't distinguish them. If you ask someone today, was Noah Jewish, most would say yes, even though Judah himself hadn't been born yet. But just because our modern society lumps all twelve tribes into one after the split doesn't mean that's what God intended. I feel like we need to accept God's word over the traditions men.

    But when you hear 144,000 being brought up as Jews, it just feels wrong to say Jews instead of the entire tribes of Israel. Oh well.

    But I will say I too, am not sure about the number symbolic wise as well.

    Comment


    • atpollard
      atpollard commented
      Editing a comment
      OK, I can go with 144,000 from the tribes of Israel as being more technically correct. I have just heard some people say that the 144,000 were a mixture of ‘Jews and Gentiles’ ... THAT was the position that I was taking exception with. 12,000 sealed from the Tribe of Joseph are not going to be gentiles.

    • William
      William commented
      Editing a comment
      Don't know if anyone missed it but we should take the 144 thousand debate over to here: Who Are the 144,000 in Revelation? - Christforums It's easier referenced in the future for those searching the 144,000.

    • Sue D.
      Sue D. commented
      Editing a comment
      How could Noah be Jewish - he was in Genesis 6 - 7 --- tower of Babel was ch 11 -- call of Abram was in Ch 12 -- Jacobs children didn't start until ch 29. The Jewish nations didn't start until a bit after that.

      Adam and Eve and their descendants were simply 'people' until well after ch 29.

      Hadn't really thought about that until you mentioned it.

    #48
    Where does the Scripture says time skips or stops ?

    Comment


    • Sue D.
      Sue D. commented
      Editing a comment
      Actually there Is a place in the Old Testament where God not only stops but backs time up. There was a battle going on. Can't remember any more (unless I Google it).

    • Sue D.
      Sue D. commented
      Editing a comment
      Look at Joshua 10:13 vs 12-14. :)

    • Fastfredy0
      Fastfredy0 commented
      Editing a comment
      God has no beginning, end (Job 36:26), or succession of moments in His own being, and He sees all time equally vividly, yet God sees events in time and acts in time. Time does not limit God; time has no effect on God’s knowledge, He cannot learn or forget for that means a change in His perfect knowledge. To God himself, all of his existence is always somehow “present”; He is the cause of time. (Hebrews 11:3)
      God has the ground of His existence in Himself. He is “the first cause, himself uncaused.” Exodus 3:14 I am that I am. God’s self-existence is not grounded in His will, but in His nature: He exists by the necessity of His nature.
      With God there can be no succession of moments because:
      a) then he would have had a beginning
      b) then he would not be unchangeable, for what would be true of him today which was not yesterday and will not be tomorrow
      c) He would not be perfect because something could be added to him from day to day.
      d) God has no succession, no increase of life, is possessed of the whole of his existence at once. This accords with the statements of Scripture. God is always spoken of in the present. He calls himself “I AM”. John 8:58
      Does not the matter of cause and effect also apply to God? Is He not also an effect that required a cause? The answer is “no”; God is not an effect (an effect being something that requires a cause) because He is eternal Psalm 90:2b. As an eternal Being He sees the past and the future as clearly as the present; further, He must see them as including succession of events, and yet He is in no way bound by that succession. He is absolutely independent of all that is not God. (John 5:26; Romans 11:33)
      From God’s perspective, any extremely long period of time is as if it just happened. And any very short period of time (such as one day) seems to God to last forever (2 Peter 3:8): it never ceases to be “present” in his consciousness. God always was and always will be.
      What then is the relation of time and eternity to each other? Time is not a part of eternity, for if it were, eternity must have succession, viz.: before time, during time, after time. They are different modes of existence which are unlike each other, time being suited to the measurement of creation periods. True eternity belongs only to the life of God. While time is not a part of eternity, it co-exists with it. Through the divine purpose all it events have been eternally present with God, and as well-known and realized by him as though actually existent.
      His eternity may be defined as that perfection of God whereby He is elevated above all temporal limits and all succession of moments, and possesses the whole of His existence in one indivisible present.
      • Genesis 21:33 the eternal God
      • Psalm 90:2 From everlasting to everlasting thou art God
      • Psalm 102:27 thou art the same, and they years have no end
      • Psalm 102:12 But You, O LORD, are enthroned forever [ruling eternally as sovereign]; And [the fame and glory of] Your name [endures] to all generations.
      • Isaiah 57:15 For the high and exalted One He who inhabits eternity,
      • Micah 2:5 “But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah;
      From you One shall come forth for Me [who is] to be Ruler in Israel, His goings forth (appearances) are from long ago, from ancient days.”
      • John 17:5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory and majesty that I had with You before the world existed.
      • John 17:24 Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given to Me [as Your gift to Me], may be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, because You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
      • Colossians 1:15 He is the exact living image [the essential manifestation] of the unseen God [the visible representation of the invisible], the firstborn [the preeminent one, the sovereign, and the originator] of all creation.
      • 1 John 1:2 And the Life [an aspect of His being] was revealed (made manifest, demonstrated), and we saw [as eyewitnesses] and are testifying to and declare to you the Life, the eternal Life [in Him] Who already existed with the Father and Who [actually] was made visible (was revealed) to us [His followers].
      • 1 Timothy 6:18 He only hath immortality
      • Revelation 1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

    #49
    I mean at the time stop at 69 weeks

    Comment


      #50
      Originally posted by Sue D. View Post

      Look at Joshua 10:13 vs 12-14. :)
      Joshua has what to do wiht the 69-70 weeks

      Comment


      • Sue D.
        Sue D. commented
        Editing a comment
        Becky -- look back at your question #48 -- you asked about time either stopping or skipped.

        Now that you've clarified -- to the best of my understanding -- Daniel was given a series of visions. Vs 24 "Seventy 'sevens' are decreed for y our people and your holy city to finish transgression...... Know and understand this; From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven 'sevens', and sixty-two 'sevens' ...... It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble.

        Vs 26 "After the sixty-two 'sevens' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing.

        "The end will come like a flood .....

        vs 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven'.- - In the middle of the 'seven' -- He will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple, He will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."

        I won't pretend to understand much of this. What I Do understand is that 'something' interrupts and the last 'seven' is the tribulation.

        The time stop at 69 wks -- I'm sure that someone has a good explanation to share with me.

      #51
      I am sure some one has a good explanation to share but what do the scriptures say.? Seems to me if there was a gap of about 2000 years it would be mentioned in scripture...


      Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
      Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
      Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
      Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


      Why do we change God's 70 weeks to 69

      Comment


        #52
        Originally posted by Sue D. View Post
        Regarding the Revelation passages -- the 144,000 of the 12 tribes of Israel Do go through the 7 yr of trib and multitudes from all over are saved as a result. 12, 000 from each tribe are chosen -- which Could indicate that those 12,000 Are the 'true' Jews.


        Sue D. You keep saying that like a mantra

        Yet there weren't twelves tribes (there were Thirteen - remember Jospeh is split into two) - so why not 156000?

        I know you believe Dan is left out because of it's association with idolatry - however Ephraim finds it's way in under the name Joseph and it is also is heavily associated with idolatry as well, in fact Ephraim is the tribe that scripture identifies for divine judgement because of it's idolatry (Hos 4:17-14:8) so if Ephraim is going to be left 'desolate' why does it get a place and Dan doesn't?

        So, we have 13 tribes reduced to 12 and no good reason for it in the futurist view.

        Then we have the fact that when John looks at what is being described to him he sees people from all tribes and tongues etc

        We could also look at what it means be sealed, and we could look at the close association of the term 'Israel' and the 'the church' - but as I have pointed out the first two points before and they have made no impact I doubt those would either sister

        So I will conclude by saying, just repeating something over and over doesn't make it true.

        Comment


        • Sue D.
          Sue D. commented
          Editing a comment
          We could look at a Lot of things -- that is True. I simply don't agree with some of what you share. And your refuting it doesn't make it False.

          God's Word says nothing about 13 tribes -- His Word Does talk about the 12 sons and Jacob becoming the 12 tribes of Israel // The Children of Israel. There Is one sister in the midst of the 'sons' of Jacob.

          A 'mantra' ? How about 'it' being Scripture.

        #53
        Originally posted by Becky View Post
        I am sure some one has a good explanation to share but what do the scriptures say.? Seems to me if there was a gap of about 2000 years it would be mentioned in scripture...
        The church was not mentioned by the OT prophets and the church age takes place between the 69th and 70th weeks. Here is a post on that subject which explains this in more deatil:

        The church and Daniel’s 70 week prophecy - Christforums
        Clyde Herrin's Blog

        Comment


        • Becky
          Becky commented
          Editing a comment
          where do the Scriptures tell us there is a break in the 70 weeks?

          I spent years forcing Scripture to fit my theology ....

        • theophilus
          theophilus commented
          Editing a comment
          The 69th week is followed by a prophecy of the destruction of Jerusalem, which took place in AD 70. This if followed by a description of the 70th week. The post I linked to explains the reason for this break.

        • reformed baptist
          reformed baptist commented
          Editing a comment
          And yet there is no exegetical reason to include such a break (indeed any consistent hermeneutic demands no break) this is one of those situations where I believe theology drives interpretation for the futurist :D

        #54
        Originally posted by theophilus View Post
        The church was not mentioned by the OT prophets
        Is that really the case?

        I can think of at least two examples where the NT clearly takes Old Testement that unpon first reading might appear to apply to the nation of Isreal and applies them to the church age.

        Amos 9:11-12/ Acts 15:16-17

        11 "On that day I will raise up The tabernacle of David, which has fallen down, And repair its damages; I will raise up its ruins, And rebuild it as in the days of old; That they may possess the remnant of Edom, And all the Gentiles who are called by My name," Says the LORD who does this thing." (Amo 9:11-12 NKJ)

        14 "Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. "And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written: `After this I will return And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down; I will rebuild its ruins, And I will set it up; So that the rest of mankind may seek the LORD, Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name, Says the LORD who does all these things1.' (Act 15:14-17 NKJ)

        Here Peter has just spoken about how God visited the gentiles through his ministry, and James says that the prophets agreed that this would happen - he then quotes this prophecy about reestablishing David's tabernacles as proof of this. The prophecy of Amos 9 is about the church!

        Furthermore, notice that James says: "with this the words of the prophets agree" Notice that is plural (and I would suggest all inclusive) - when you say, " The church was not mentioned by the OT prophets" my response is, James tells every prophet mentioned the church (Acts 15:15)

        Here is one more example:

        Ezekiel 37:27/ 2 Cor 6:16

        27 "My tabernacle also shall be with them; indeed I will be their God, and they shall be My people. (Eze 37:27 NKJ)

        16 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will dwell in them And walk among them. I will be their God, And they shall be My people2." (2Co 6:16 NKJ)

        Here Paul speaking to a church quotes Ezek 37:27 to establish what he is saying from scripture.

        Now, these are just the tow examples that sprung to my mind in response - there are many more in Hebrews for example, where the writer applies Old Testament prophecy to the church and makes it plain that prophecies about the NT church - not about national Israel.


        Comment


          #55

          theophilus

          Understanding your post tries to explain the break .. Where in Scriptures do they tell us there is a break? .. Dispensationalism has forced that break in the Word of God.. ..

          I accepted Dispensationalism as truth for around 40 years... IMO dispensationalism does not fit the Scriptures.

          My understanding is 70 ad was the end of Danial prophecy


          Not being articulate any more from me would just be the old ' He said she said ' thanks for the discussion..

          Comment


            #56
            I've been gradually observing that in the discussions about prophesy that 'everyone' has their interpretation Of and 'their' interpretation is totally Biblical while Others's 'interpretations are based on 'man-made traditions'. That gets a bit 'old'.

            God's Word Is as complex as it is simple. And sometimes 'we' try to make the simple 'complex'.

            And here have been comments made about 'the correct exegeting of a passage'.

            My understanding has been that the last 'seven' being yet to come means that God is not finished with Israel , yet..

            Why do people have to argue so much about God's Word? That's rhetorical.

            Comment


              #57
              God has no beginning, end (Job 36:26), or succession of moments in His own being, and He sees all time equally vividly, yet God sees events in time and acts in time. Time does not limit God; time has no effect on God’s knowledge, He cannot learn or forget for that means a change in His perfect knowledge. To God himself, all of his existence is always somehow “present”; He is the cause of time. (Hebrews 11:3)
              God has the ground of His existence in Himself. He is “the first cause, himself uncaused.” Exodus 3:14 I am that I am. God’s self-existence is not grounded in His will, but in His nature: He exists by the necessity of His nature.
              With God there can be no succession of moments because:
              a) then he would have had a beginning
              b) then he would not be unchangeable, for what would be true of him today which was not yesterday and will not be tomorrow
              c) He would not be perfect because something could be added to him from day to day.
              d) God has no succession, no increase of life, is possessed of the whole of his existence at once. This accords with the statements of Scripture. God is always spoken of in the present. He calls himself “I AM”. John 8:58
              Does not the matter of cause and effect also apply to God? Is He not also an effect that required a cause? The answer is “no”; God is not an effect (an effect being something that requires a cause) because He is eternal Psalm 90:2b. As an eternal Being He sees the past and the future as clearly as the present; further, He must see them as including succession of events, and yet He is in no way bound by that succession. He is absolutely independent of all that is not God. (John 5:26; Romans 11:33)
              From God’s perspective, any extremely long period of time is as if it just happened. And any very short period of time (such as one day) seems to God to last forever (2 Peter 3:8): it never ceases to be “present” in his consciousness. God always was and always will be.
              What then is the relation of time and eternity to each other? Time is not a part of eternity, for if it were, eternity must have succession, viz.: before time, during time, after time. They are different modes of existence which are unlike each other, time being suited to the measurement of creation periods. True eternity belongs only to the life of God. While time is not a part of eternity, it co-exists with it. Through the divine purpose all it events have been eternally present with God, and as well-known and realized by him as though actually existent.
              His eternity may be defined as that perfection of God whereby He is elevated above all temporal limits and all succession of moments, and possesses the whole of His existence in one indivisible present.
              Genesis 21:33 the eternal God
              Psalm 90:2 From everlasting to everlasting thou art God
              Psalm 102:27 thou art the same, and they years have no end
              Psalm 102:12 But You, O LORD, are enthroned forever [ruling eternally as sovereign]; And [the fame and glory of] Your name [endures] to all generations.
              Isaiah 57:15 For the high and exalted One He who inhabits eternity,
              Micah 2:5 “But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah;
              From you One shall come forth for Me [who is] to be Ruler in Israel, His goings forth (appearances) are from long ago, from ancient days.”
              John 17:5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory and majesty that I had with You before the world existed.
              John 17:24 Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given to Me [as Your gift to Me], may be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, because You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
              Colossians 1:15 He is the exact living image [the essential manifestation] of the unseen God [the visible representation of the invisible], the firstborn [the preeminent one, the sovereign, and the originator] of all creation.
              1 John 1:2 And the Life [an aspect of His being] was revealed (made manifest, demonstrated), and we saw [as eyewitnesses] and are testifying to and declare to you the Life, the eternal Life [in Him] Who already existed with the Father and Who [actually] was made visible (was revealed) to us [His followers].
              1 Timothy 6:18 He only hath immortality
              Revelation 1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

              That is the most articulate explanation I have ever read or heard. i pray you do not mind my reposting it tagged with by FastFredd0 @Christforums.org.

              Comment


              • Fastfredy0
                Fastfredy0 commented
                Editing a comment
                Not a problem ... I think it is from A.W.Pink's book "The Attributes of God". It's only 99 cents in kindle version.
                I have found that knowing what the attributes of God is a great foundation for understanding other things. (Example: A guy at a bible study said, "God is not in hell" ... I instantly thought, "well, God is omnipresent so that statement is suspect."

              #58
              Originally posted by Sue D. View Post
              We could look at a Lot of things -- that is True. I simply don't agree with some of what you share.
              That's your prerogative of course

              And your refuting it doesn't make it False.
              The pedant me can't help but suggest you check out the meaning of 'refute'

              refute
              rɪˈfjuːt/
              verb
              prove (a statement or theory) to be wrong or false; disprove.



              13 tribes - not 12

              God's Word says nothing about 13 tribes -- His Word Does talk about the 12 sons and Jacob becoming the 12 tribes of Israel // The Children of Israel. There Is one sister in the midst of the 'sons' of Jacob.
              Jacob had twelve sons, however the tribe of Joseph was split into two - Ephraim and Mannesseh - ergo 13 tribes (and Numbers 1:5-54 spells this out very clearly - 12 tribes are included in the census (v5-46) however the tribe of Levi is not included in the census (v47-49)

              Reuben
              Simeon
              Levi
              Judah
              Issachar
              Zebulun
              Dan
              Naphtali
              Gad
              Asher
              Ephrain
              Mannessah
              Benjamin

              Now, I might be wrong, but to my mind it follows that if we are trying to understand a census in the last book of the Bible we might want to look at earlier ones in the scriptures - especially those that involves the same 'tribes' - if we haven't done that and if we not able to explain the differences what assurance can we have that we have understood the latter census properly?

              A 'mantra' ? How about 'it' being Scripture.
              And yet the proper legwork has not been done to make such a bold statement sister.

              There were 13 tribes of Israel (your argument on that score is with scripture, not me) - yet when we come to the census of Rev 7 there are only 12! What has happened to Dan? (and idolatry isn't a good enough reason, Ephraim is noted particularly for their idolatry as well, and in fact the 10 tribes of the northern kingdom are all left desolate because of idolatry - the southern kingdom remains a remnant.) Why is Joseph mentioned and not Ephraim - why is the order different to normal?

              All those questions need to satisfactory answers if your assertion is going to stand up to the light of even the mildest scrutiny!

              The difference between hearing and seeing

              And then of course we return to the difference between hearing and seeing - in Rev 7:4 John 'hears the number of those sealed' then follows this description of these twelve 'tribes' each contain 12000 - it's a description of symmetry and order - it's a description of regiments in an army, and the description is coming from an Angel (this is God's perspective). Then in v9 john looks at he sees what the angel has been describing to him - and what does he see?

              Rev 7:9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, (NKJ)

              What is an army of 'Israelites' in God's eyes, looks to John like 'a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues'

              Of course in the end it is up to you what you do with this information sister - you can ponder it, and consider if I might actually have a valid point or two, or you can reject and do an internet search to find an article that will reinforce your a priori assumptions - I have no control over that. However, the simple truth is we can't both be right (we could both be wrong though) and the only way we will ever grow in understanding is, if when our views are challenged we go back to scripture to see if that challenge is biblical - now, I believe I am being thoroughly biblical on these points, and I thank you for your patience as I have repeated them

              Comment


              • atpollard
                atpollard commented
                Editing a comment
                Elsewhere, it refers to the half-tribes:

                Joshua 4:12 The sons of Reuben and the sons of Gad and the half-tribe of Manasseh crossed over in battle array before the sons of Israel, just as Moses had spoken to them;

              • Sue D.
                Sue D. commented
                Editing a comment
                RB -- It Sounds like you are delving into two census's being taken and since you've found inconsistencies -- that That over-rules the fact of there being 12 tribes of Israel.

                Sometimes people like to 'nitpic' Scripture just for the fun of it. To prove a point?! They Can so they Do. But Why? If a person is out to Find inconsistancies -- they can be found. But -- what is that really accomplishing? Building Up or possibly tearing Down the faith/ belief of other people.

                You'res saying that idolatry isn't a good enough of a reason -- well -- seems that it Was and that eventually the tribes were dispersed into the other people groups around them Because they refused to be obedient. They chose to obey God AND other gods. In the process Of -- there were / still Are 12 tribes of Israel. Not in the form of groups -- but still 'out there'. Gradually coming back together.

                Of course you've had a valid point or two. And so have I and others. :) (time for my lunch)

                And, looking ahead @ atpollard -- good points.

              • reformed baptist
                reformed baptist commented
                Editing a comment
                atpollard - that refers to half of the tribe of Manasseh, it is not saying Manasseh is a 'half tribe' - Manasseh received an inheritance on both sides of the Jordan (those who had already entered into their possesion on one side of the river were called up to fight with those who still had to take their possession)

              #59
              Sue D.

              RB -- It Sounds like you are delving into two census's being taken and since you've found inconsistencies -- that That over-rules the fact of there being 12 tribes of Israel.
              I am about to give up sister! The simple fact is, there were 13 tribes of Israel (just like there were 13 apostles) - That is an indisputable fact and I am sorry to be blunt but anyone who denies that is arguing against scripture, not against me! 12 Tribes received an inheritance of land, one tribe received an inheritance of God (Levi)

              No, if you wish to dispute that, rather then casting aspirations in regards to my motives actually engage with what I am saying and hightlight to me which of following is not a tribe of Isreal:

              Reuben
              Simeon
              Levi
              Judah
              Issachar
              Zebulun
              Dan
              Naphtali
              Gad
              Asher
              Ephrain
              Mannessah
              Benjamin

              Sometimes people like to 'nitpic' Scripture just for the fun of it. To prove a point?! They Can so they Do. But Why? If a person is out to Find inconsistancies -- they can be found. But -- what is that really accomplishing? Building Up or possibly tearing Down the faith/ belief of other people.
              How is questing your understanding on a secondary matter tearing down your faith? Is this fundamentalist approach your response to anyone who disagrees with you on any matter of doctrine? How do you ever hope to grow in faith and understanding?

              Of course, it is far easier to reject a person's reasoning if you can find a way of discrediting them in your own eyes. It seems that to you I appear to be someone who is seeking to undermine your faith - however that is far from the case! Iron sharpens iron sister, but in the end how you understand scripture is between you and God

              You'res saying that idolatry isn't a good enough of a reason -- well -- seems that it Was and that eventually the tribes were dispersed into the other people groups around them Because they refused to be obedient. They chose to obey God AND other gods. In the process Of -- there were / still Are 12 tribes of Israel. Not in the form of groups -- but still 'out there'. Gradually coming back together.
              You are determined to misunderstand everything I say it appears.

              I said idolatry isn't a good enough reason to exclude just Dan - and the reason for that is that other tribes that were equally idolatrous are not excluded!

              It is telling though that you have no biblical reasoning to reject my points - but instead must rely upon questing my motives

              Of course you've had a valid point or two. And so have I and others. :) (time for my lunch)
              Thanks - but this is insightful - when you agree with me I am making 'a good point' but when what I say challenges your understanding I am "tearing Down the faith/ belief of other people"

              And, looking ahead @ atpollard -- good points.
              What - his comment about the 'half tribe of Mannessah'. Again, like those articles you have jumped to in the past to defend your position it seems like you haven't checked out what he has said to see how accurate it is

              In Deut 29:8 we read "We took their land and gave it as an inheritance to the Reubenites, to the Gadites, and to half the tribe of Manasseh. (NKJ) - this is an inheritance on the 'other side of the Jordan' given before the nation has gone in and possessed the promised land. When, in the days of Joshua the conquest of canaan is about to begin Joshua calls up the people from the 'other side of the Jordan' to help in the conquest:

              12 And to the Reubenites, the Gadites, and half the tribe of Manasseh Joshua spoke, saying,
              13 "Remember the word which Moses the servant of the LORD commanded you, saying,`The LORD your God is giving you rest and is giving you this land.'
              14 "Your wives, your little ones, and your livestock shall remain in the land which Moses gave you on this side of the Jordan. But you shall pass before your brethren armed, all your mighty men of valor, and help them,
              15 "until the LORD has given your brethren rest, as He gave you, and they also have taken possession of the land which the LORD your God is giving them. Then you shall return to the land of your possession and enjoy it, which Moses the LORD'S servant gave you on this side of the Jordan toward the sunrise."
              16 So they answered Joshua, saying, "All that you command us we will do, and wherever you send us we will go.
              (Jos 1:12-16 NKJ)


              And the verse that was quoted follows this:

              12 And the men of Reuben, the men of Gad, and half the tribe of Manasseh crossed over armed before the children of Israel, as Moses had spoken to them. (Jos 4:12 NKJ)

              Actually the other half of the tribe of Manasseh is referenced later when the promised is divided between the tribes, eg Josh 13:7

              I think I am done with this thread, I don't appreciate it when I have spent time and effort to engage with a person through scriptural reasoning and I am accused of seeking to tear down a persons faith! ​​​​​​​

              Comment


              • Sue D.
                Sue D. commented
                Editing a comment
                Of Course it has relevance. That tribe of Dan was taken out at some point. Back in the beginning there were 12 as has already been stated per Scripture.

              • reformed baptist
                reformed baptist commented
                Editing a comment
                Sue D.

                Originally posted by Sue D. View Post
                Back in the beginning there were 12 as has already been stated per Scripture.
                I am sorry but that simply is not the case - you have not proved it from scripture at all - infact I am struggling to find much scripture in your posts on this subject at all! There were never twelve tribes of Israel - it was always 13 (12 with a land inheritance and the tribe of Levi) - I have proved that from scripture and all you have done have repeated your tradition and leveled accusations at me - well, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink........

              • reformed baptist
                reformed baptist commented
                Editing a comment
                I have started a new thread on this topic:

                How many tribes of Israel? - Christforums
                Last edited by reformed baptist; 04-17-2018, 12:38 AM.
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