Discussions related to the end times and Bible prophecy.

The prophecy of the falling away from the faith

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    #16
    Originally posted by deade View Post
    Ransol, what group are you talking about. I know of no major groups of Christians that believe they are justified by keeping the law. I know of some groups that believe we are saved by grace, but keep the commandments of God out of reverence. The son of perdition was the devil getting into Christianity with a false religion that mimics the true faith. This was happening during the Apostles' time with the Gnostic's doctrine. When Constantine convened the Council of Nicaea, the devil was present and pretty much took over Christianity. The Pope is the only one that sits in a temple and claims he fully represents Christ. the SDA may have missed the boat on much of their prophecy, but they called the antichrist right.
    It's not a group of Christians, they're everywhere. They're in my church, they're in your church. Everywhere Christians are struggling with the law and they can't quit. They have tried, but they are powerless in their flesh. Porn, lust, anger, pride, you name it. It is everywhere. It is because they are walking in the flesh and not in the spirit.

    maybe these are not justifid by the law, but they do believe keeping the law is going to please God, not realizing He is already pleased with them. He is not angry at their sin any more.

    I have talked to a few people on this sight that have pointed out that Grace is a license to sin. But GRACE is the Gospel Galatians 1:6.

    my only point is that many Christians do not know how to separate the two covenants. Thus, they don't know how to divide the word of Truth between the two covenants.

    I'm trying really hard not to name names here.

    Remember Mathew 7:21-23 ? Not everyone who says to me Lord Lord will enter the Kingdom of my Father.... They use this verse to say that faith alone will not save. It's as if they have NEVER even read the passage.

    They also throw at me, Even the devils believe.

    Have they never read and understood what lukewarm is all about? It about them.

    Oh, trust me, they are everywhere. I have no doubt they are saved, and truly love God and want to please Him. But they are going about it the wrong way.

    I really am trying to help them find that rest.

    Comment


      #17
      Are they really saved Ransol? If they think that keeping the law will save them, that is not saved. That is deceived.



      Comment


        #18
        Originally posted by Ransol View Post
        Yes but James was not using the argument the same as you are. You are saying believing in Christ without works is dead. James is not talking about being justified before God, but before man. Show ME your faith without your works, and I will SHOW YOU my faith by my works.

        Romans 4:2, if Abraham were justified by works, He had reason to glory, BUT NOT BEFORE GOD.


        Mathew 5:16 let your light so shine before men that they shall see your good works and glorify you Father in Heaven.

        it is God who works IN and thru us to do His good will.

        You can have good works without faith, but you can not have faith in Christ as Lord and savior and redeemer without having good works. It is not going to happen. If nothing else, faith in Christ is good works John 6:29.

        too many Christians are trying too hard to have good works instead of letting God work thru them. That is why it is very laborous to enter into the rest of knowing that faith is enough. God said He will change you to be like Jesus. Trying to change ourselves is just being selfrighteous and unbelieving. Kind of like what Abraham and Hagar were all about. See Galatians 4:21 thru 31. We are the Children of promise ,s simply by believing in Christ, as a promise God made to Abraham. That is in Galatians 3, and it regardless of our works.

        BTW, James was a minister to the Jews who WERE under the law. The law was all they'd ever known. The whole idea of faith without works was new to them. Teaching them is different than Paul teaching the gentiles. Re different mindsets.
        The only thing I'm pointing out is that faith and works are not separated, we agree on this.


        James is contrasting two types of faith, a faith that produces works and a faith is dead and alone. James is affirming the same truth that Paul is in Ephesians 2:10.


        ​​​​

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          #19
          Originally posted by Innerfire89 View Post

          The only thing I'm pointing out is that faith and works are not separated, we agree on this.


          James is contrasting two types of faith, a faith that produces works and a faith is dead and alone. James is affirming the same truth that Paul is in Ephesians 2:10.


          ​​​​
          True faith will have good works, maybe not instantly, but at some point. Faith is a good work John 6:29. I think the problem comes from people not knowing that it is God that works in and thru us Philippians 2:13, so they muster up their own good works. Is this so they can be saved? Or so they can please God? I don' know.

          Faith in Christ is all it takes to have eternal life. A person can have good works and not even believe in God.

          most Christians who have God working these good works in and thru them, don' even realise they are doing His good works. They just do what comes natural to them. Why is it natural to them, because that's what is in their heart. God put it there.
          But those works don' help save us. Those works wouldn' even be Him working in and thru us unless we were already saved.

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            #20
            Originally posted by Ransol View Post

            True faith will have good works, maybe not instantly, but at some point. Faith is a good work John 6:29. I think the problem comes from people not knowing that it is God that works in and thru us Philippians 2:13, so they muster up their own good works. Is this so they can be saved? Or so they can please God? I don' know.

            Faith in Christ is all it takes to have eternal life. A person can have good works and not even believe in God.

            most Christians who have God working these good works in and thru them, don' even realise they are doing His good works. They just do what comes natural to them. Why is it natural to them, because that's what is in their heart. God put it there.
            But those works don' help save us. Those works wouldn' even be Him working in and thru us unless we were already saved.
            I don't know if we can say that unbelievers cannot do God's work. God can use anybody. In fact while in the mission field, I was reproved by a bum in the gutter. That would make him an angel, or messenger, of God. I don't believe a saved person would be in that condition.
            Last edited by deade; 02-09-2018, 07:41 AM. Reason: Clarification

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              #21
              Originally posted by deade View Post

              I don't know if we can say that unbelievers cannot do God's work. God can use anybody. In fact while in the mission field, I was reproved by a bum in the gutter. That would make him an angel, or messenger, of God. I don't believe a saved person would be in that condition.
              You can be saved in any profession, even a bum in the gutter. Remember Lazarus. Salvation doesn't depend on being well dressed and well fed.

              Comment


                #22
                Good works are Love, and faith without love is dead. You can have faith enough to move mountains but if you have no love you amount to nothing.

                Comment


                  #23
                  Originally posted by Matto View Post
                  Good works are Love, and faith without love is dead. You can have faith enough to move mountains but if you have no love you amount to nothing.
                  Amount to nothing? That doesn't sound very loving. You'd still be someone Christ died for.

                  how much love would a person have to have, to qualify for eternal life? This is perfected love, not that we love Him but that He loved us. We love Him, BECAUSE He first loved us. We will never truly love Him or others until we understand just how much He loves us. Jesus said for us to love others as He loved us. If we don' know how much He loves us (and I mean know it in our hearts, not just in our heads), how will we love others? We won't. You can't give what you don't have.

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Originally posted by Ransol View Post

                    Amount to nothing? That doesn't sound very loving. You'd still be someone Christ died for.

                    how much love would a person have to have, to qualify for eternal life? This is perfected love, not that we love Him but that He loved us. We love Him, BECAUSE He first loved us. We will never truly love Him or others until we understand just how much He loves us. Jesus said for us to love others as He loved us. If we don' know how much He loves us (and I mean know it in our hearts, not just in our heads), how will we love others? We won't. You can't give what you don't have.
                    We are poor in love, but God has an infinite treasury of it. The spiritual economy works by appropriation, what we don't have we take, we claim it as sons of a father. No waiting for the fatted calf, we take it, what belongs to the Father belongs to us. " Everything I have is yours "

                    We don't see bums, we see Christ. What we do for the least of these we do for Christ. When you find the least you find Christ with all His grace. Grace to Love, Grace to heal, Grace to fulfill our special mission.

                    Love fulfills all the commandments, as you progress in sonship you don't ask you take. At first you ask but as your mind conforms that of Christ more closely to The Holy Will of the Father, you take at will. The son knows his fathers will, and as such he takes to carry out his fathers will.

                    Our daily bread is Grace, we ask for it if not we claim it in Christ Jesus.

                    Comment


                      #25
                      "how much love would a person have to have, to qualify for eternal life?"

                      Just love all those the Father sends you each day, say the Lords Prayer for breakfast, and know that he will supply the daily bread of Grace to fulfill all He asks in Love.

                      And as each day passes on to weeks, months and years, you will have faithfully fulfilled the Fathers Will, and carried out all the Commandments, all the days of your life.

                      Comment


                        #26
                        Originally posted by Matto View Post

                        We are poor in love, but God has an infinite treasury of it. The spiritual economy works by appropriation, what we don't have we take, we claim it as sons of a father. No waiting for the fatted calf, we take it, what belongs to the Father belongs to us. " Everything I have is yours "

                        We don't see bums, we see Christ. What we do for the least of these we do for Christ. When you find the least you find Christ with all His grace. Grace to Love, Grace to heal, Grace to fulfill our special mission.

                        Love fulfills all the commandments, as you progress in sonship you don't ask you take. At first you ask but as your mind conforms that of Christ more closely to The Holy Will of the Father, you take at will. The son knows his fathers will, and as such he takes to carry out his fathers will.

                        Our daily bread is Grace, we ask for it if not we claim it in Christ Jesus.
                        Right on! We TAKE it. Christ died for us, so we have a right to it. Personally, I want everything He died to give me. May I never stop growing until I realize ALL his promises. This is what he meant when he said WORK OUT YOUR OWN SALVATION with fear and trembling (as Jeremiah used fear and trembling in 33:9 for all the good that He does, for the prosperity He gives, and not as it is used today by Christians who don' know better).

                        Praise God, I just preached myself happy.

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Originally posted by Matto View Post

                          You can be saved in any profession, even a bum in the gutter. Remember Lazarus. Salvation doesn't depend on being well dressed and well fed.
                          You are right there Matto, that is why I quit speculating on whether someone was saved or not. I probably shouldn't have put the way I did. I should have just said an unsaved person can be a tool of God.
                          Last edited by deade; 02-09-2018, 12:36 PM. Reason: typo

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                            #28
                            If we do not stop for the lost sheep who will, we who know Christ and are His body the Church. Sometimes lambs are helpless and need a little assistance on our part to survive.
                            I remember a lamb had drunk so much milk it couldn't get up, its stomach was as round as a soccer ball. Had to carry it back to the flock before crows ate its eyes out.
                            We walk by Lazarus each day unseeing, we must ask the Father for the Grace to see and understand. Without this Grace we are blind and judgemental, but when we understand, judgment disappears and we are fully free to Love.
                            This is how the saints could kiss lepers, they see Jesus not lepers. This is by Grace.

                            We are not like secular volunteers who burn out and become cynical. We start the day in prayer and fuel up from the source of Grace for hours before we go out. What is done by God's Grace and timing is far more effective than mere human effort. With Grace we are the movement of Christ body the Church, by mere human activity we are just tourists.

                            So our first duty is be with Christ in the morning. Be with Him on the shores of Galilee, be with Him at the foot of the Cross in meditation and a great charge of Grace fills us in His presence, then we go out in Jesus name, and with confidence in the Father. The Father anticipates us with His Grace, have in the forefront of your mind that you only want the Father's Will to be done, and all that Grace is available to you. There is nothing lacking in the Father's providence, His grace is enough for each day's work in the vineyard.

                            Comment


                              #29
                              Originally posted by Hidden Manna View Post
                              We are warned in 1 Timothy 4:1 “Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;” Also in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 “Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;”

                              The falling away from the faith above mentioned by Paul has to do with the saints of God being overcome by all the lies and deception of the Devil by way of his spirit, which is the spirit of a lie. This spirit of a lie is also shown as the false prophet spirit which works in many deceivers. As many false prophets and teachers were foretold to come into the world like a swarm of locusts from hell and darken the Light of the Truth in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

                              Paul was playing off the words of Jesus when he referred to “that man” and “son of perdition” in the above verse. But this is not to be misunderstood as a being single individual man yet to come in the future like Judas, but rather it speaks of the sin nature of man (mystery of iniquity) being raised back up again in the world and embraced. These seducing spirits and doctrines of devils would enter into the man-made church system as well, thereby causing many to play the Harlot with the ways of the world, and thereby making them desolate of good works and naked by sin.

                              Notice how Jesus refers to a whole wicked generation as “a man” and “ that man” (like Paul said) here in Matthew 12:43-45 “When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.”

                              Now notice the wording Jesus used showing the “last state of that man” referring to a whole wicked generation compared to Peters concerning this same falling away in 2 Peter 2:20-22 “For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.”

                              Many of the saints being overcome is also shown here in Revelation 13:7 “And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.” So this spirit of deception and lies would also overcome many of the saints as is also confirmed here in Daniel 7:21 “I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;” That horn is the tail of the red Dragon, which speaks of the spirit of a lie working in all the false prophets of the world. This spirit of a lie was foretold to practice and prosper in the world and also cast the truth and also some of the host of heaven to the ground.

                              So was Paul talking about a single man in 2 Thess. or a single evil spirit and also other seducing spirits working in a whole wicked generation like Jesus said? Well if you read the whole chapter in 2 Thessalonians 2:8-12 you will see this truth is shown…“And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”

                              Clearly Paul was talking about more than one single individual man in the above verses using words like them, they, and they all. Jesus also confirms there would be many deceivers practicing lying wonders and great signs in Matthew 24:24 “For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Mark 13:22 “For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.”

                              But what about the term “son of perdition?” It speaks of the same thing, as was first shown in Judas (one who broke bread at the Lords table) who also sold out the Truth for a pocket full of silver. Just as the firstborn Esau sold his birth right inheritance for some red pottage.(sin) Look at what Peter had to say about the “son of perdition.”
                              Peter goes on to quote scripture concerning Judas, (son of perdition) in the Psalms Acts 1:20 “For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.” Now, in order to confirm my point about there being more than one “son of perdition” or son who goes into destruction, let’s look at the Psalms from where Peter was drawing this from.

                              In Psalm 69 we see this same language used in Psalm 69:25 “Let their habitation be desolate; and let none dwell in their tents.” Notice the Psalm says “their” as in more than one. As a matter of fact, if you read the whole Psalm the Lord is speaking of many, like in verse 4 the Lord says “they that hate me without a cause are more than the hairs of mine head”. The Lord repeatedly uses the words “they their, and them”, in the Psalm just as Paul also used the same language in 2 Thess 2:10-12 describing the man of sin, (lawlessness) and son of perdition.
                              Now let’s confirm the same message in another Psalm which speaks of what Peter quoted also in Psalm 109:8 “Let his days be few; and let another take his office.”

                              Now that sounds more like what Peter was quoting from when he said in Acts 1:20 “Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take” Which this does speak specifically about the single man Judas. (Which has already been fulfilled as Jesus noted in John 17:12.)
                              But let’s now look at that Psalm in the greater context of what is being said.

                              Psalm 109:1-13 “Hold not thy peace, O God of my praise; 2 For the mouth of the wicked and the mouth of the deceitful are opened against me: they have spoken against me with a lying tongue. 3 They compassed me about also with words of hatred; and fought against me without a cause.4 For my love they are my adversaries: but I give myself unto prayer.5 And they have rewarded me evil for good, and hatred for my love.6 Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand.7 When he shall be judged, let him be condemned: and let his prayer become sin.8 Let his days be few; and let another take his office.9 Let his children be fatherless, and his wife a widow.10 Let his children be continually vagabonds, and beg: let them seek their bread also out of their desolate places.11 Let the extortioner catch all that he hath; and let the strangers spoil his labour.12 Let there be none to extend mercy unto him: neither let there be any to favour his fatherless children.13 Let his posterity be cut off; and in the generation following let their name be blotted out.”

                              So though him was referring to the single man Judas in this Psalm, as both Jesus and Peter confirmed; I believe it is very clear that Paul was not talking about a single man yet to come, but rather a whole wicked generation who would fall away from following after the Truth in Christ, and also go into destruction.
                              Where would the church be without all the legions of people who are so willing to tell us that God does not mean what He says when He doesn't use comparative language? Much better off! YOu have embraced an extreme heretical allegorical hermeneutic. You strongly imply that God needs special interpreters of His word because the Holy Spirit is not good enough for the church to know His Word.

                              We all will see in the not too distant future that the man of sin- is a particular man. Not only is there a literal antichrist- but there is also the spirit of antichrist as well. It is not an either or as you seem to demand it but it is a both/and.

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