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The Catholic church is not Babylon

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    #16
    Guppy
    I liked your explanation. It appeared to fit the facts better than any other I had heard. I am just not particularly adept at following prophecy. Sometimes I have trouble even after the angel comes and explains it in Scripture.

    In my post above (#7), I was just taking a shot at how it COULD be Rome or Jerusalem ... which is the challenge you threw down.
    I have no clue what Babylon the Great is in Revelation. For that matter, I have trouble with most of the symbolism in Revelation. I am pretty sure of one thing, though. When a dragon attempts to eat a woman and her child, Revelation is probably not 100% literal.
    Comment>

      #17
      Originally posted by William View Post

      G'evening Guppy,

      This is what you wrote:
      • In her was found the blood of prophets and of God’s holy people, of all who have been slaughtered on the earth.”
      • Is Jerusalem responsible for all that have been slaughter on earth??
      • Is Rome responsible for all the deaths of those slaughtered?
      • Its not symbolism all scripture needs to fit together
      Lets address "all".

      "In her" was found the blood of prophets and of saints. And of all that were slain upon the earth.

      Does this mean everyone without exception in the entire world (and throughout time)? Or could it mean not only the slain "in the city of Rome", but of "all" those slain "throughout the empire"?

      God bless,
      William
      One could argue, of course, that Babylon the Great is nothing more or less than the world's political and economic system, which can be traced to man's attempts to rule the world without God ( and thus ultimately traceable to the Ancient Serpent, or Satan) and that the slaughtered are God's people who have been martyred throughout the ages and all over the world. Is Rome or Jerusalem responsible for all the blood of God's people that have been spilled? No, but those cities are the sites of some of the bloodiest persecutions of the Church in her infancy. One might say that the persecutions had their jump off point from those two cities.
      Comment>

        #18
        I agree with you historically, but is Rome Biblically Babylon the Great. I don't think so.
        Comment>

          #19
          Originally posted by DPMartin View Post

          does 11:8 say Babylon ? no it doesn't does it?
          It Says the Great City. How Many "The Great City's" are there in Revelation?
          Are they all great? are any Greater than another?
          Or is every Reference to "The Great City" John makes in Revelation referring to The ONE Great city?

          the writer of the text isn't a moron that needs clarifying of his writings by people's assumptions reading it over 1900 years later.
          When Choosing who the morons are... the writer of the text or the Interpreters making assumptions 1900 years later.... my money is NOT on the writer.
          Comment>

            #20
            Originally posted by LastDaze View Post
            When Choosing who the morons are... the writer of the text or the Interpreters making assumptions 1900 years later.... my money is NOT on the writer.
            That's pretty funny.
            Comment>

              #21
              Originally posted by ConfessionalLutheran View Post

              One could argue, of course, that Babylon the Great is nothing more or less than the world's political and economic system, which can be traced to man's attempts to rule the world without God ( and thus ultimately traceable to the Ancient Serpent, or Satan) and that the slaughtered are God's people who have been martyred throughout the ages and all over the world. Is Rome or Jerusalem responsible for all the blood of God's people that have been spilled? No, but those cities are the sites of some of the bloodiest persecutions of the Church in her infancy. One might say that the persecutions had their jump off point from those two cities.
              I believe you're right. I think Revelation can have multiple applications as most Scriptures. No doubt they were written for those living then, now and well into the future. I do not doubt that there will be an "epicenter" or final climatic ending to things which are to come shortly (at that time) and which have been seen, are, and are to come".

              God's people have been martyred throughout history, but there seemingly is an epicenter which occurred around the time of the Roman Empire. I believe as you mentioned that Babylon the Great is nothing more or less than the world's political and economic system, but I'm curious, has every Christian been killed by Rome, Jerusalem or such system? What about those dying in a car accident?

              Originally posted by William View Post
              G'evening Guppy,

              This is what you wrote:
              • In her was found the blood of prophets and of God’s holy people, of all who have been slaughtered on the earth.”
              • Is Jerusalem responsible for all that have been slaughter on earth??
              • Is Rome responsible for all the deaths of those slaughtered?
              • Its not symbolism all scripture needs to fit together
              Lets address "all".

              "In her" was found the blood of prophets and of saints. And of all that were slain upon the earth.

              Does this mean everyone without exception in the entire world (and throughout time)? Or could it mean not only the slain "in the city of Rome", but of "all" those slain "throughout the empire"?
              My point being in my previous post where I addressed "all" is that the word all is defined by the context of surrounding Scripture. I generally accept all, everyone, etc as hyperbole.

              For example, all I know (isn't truly all I know) is that if I listened to the radio and a sports announcer said, Hello Met's fans, did you see the win last night that had all the city celebrating? Now, am I to take that everyone in the city was celebrating? Or am I to take into account who the context exactly addresses the statement towards, the greeting was directed towards the Met's fans, and that all was hyperbole?

              Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
              (24) And in her was found . . .—It is not by seductiveness only that her guilt is measured: her hands are defiled with blood: the blood of prophets, who had witnessed against her: of saints, whose holy lives were a protest against her sins, and so hateful to her; and “of all who have been slain on the earth.” (Comp. Revelation 17:6, and Note there.) It is not meant that literally all the blood shed by violence had been shed by Rome, or any other single city of which Babylon is type: all that is meant is that Babylon, the world city, is founded on those principles, the logical outcome of which is violence, bloodshed, and hostility to the highest right: those who die by her hands, few or many, are the evidence that the whole tendency of her power is against holiness and truth. In the earthly view, we are guilty of the acts we do: in the heavenly view, we are guilty of all that the spirit and sin of our conduct tends to do. The spirit of transgression is seen in one act as well as in many, and as it is the attitude of the spirit that God looks upon, so in a single act may be gathered up the transgression of the whole law. (Comp. Revelation 17:6, and Note there; see also James 2:10). It is the fatal failure to perceive this which leads man to make light of sin, and to undervalue the Cross of Christ.
              Do others share similar logic today as the once great city? Sure, I think so.

              God bless,
              William
              Comment>

                #22
                Originally posted by William View Post

                I believe you're right. I think Revelation can have multiple applications as most Scriptures.
                Should we then expect another Virgin Birth? another Crucifixion?
                Was Calvary a mere type of some future greater sacrifice for sin?

                Are you Building an Ark for the next flood?

                Who gets to decide which scriptures get fulfiled again and again and again and again and which do not?
                You? Me?
                Billy Graham? The Pope?

                No doubt they were written for those living then
                Agreed.

                now and well into the future.
                Pastorally yes, prophetically, no.

                I do not doubt that there will be an "epicenter" or final climatic ending to things which are to come shortly (at that time) and which have been seen, are, and are to come".
                Well I doubt it. For Scripture teaches that the earth and material cosmos will exist forever (Ecc 1:4; Ps 78:69; 89:36-37; 104:5; 148:4-6; Eph 3:21) and that human generations are perpetual (Ps 145:13; Dan 4:3,34; Dan 7:14,18,27; Lk 1:33)
                Comment>

                  #23
                  Originally posted by LastDaze View Post

                  Should we then expect another Virgin Birth? another Crucifixion?
                  Was Calvary a mere type of some future greater sacrifice for sin?

                  Are you Building an Ark for the next flood?

                  Who gets to decide which scriptures get fulfiled again and again and again and again and which do not?
                  You? Me?
                  Billy Graham? The Pope?


                  Agreed.


                  Pastorally yes, prophetically, no.



                  Well I doubt it. For Scripture teaches that the earth and material cosmos will exist forever (Ecc 1:4; Ps 78:69; 89:36-37; 104:5; 148:4-6; Eph 3:21) and that human generations are perpetual (Ps 145:13; Dan 4:3,34; Dan 7:14,18,27; Lk 1:33)
                  Are you confusing having one correct meaning with multiple applications or significance? Do you think Revelation has no other application/significance to anyone else in other time periods? Or does Revelation have application/significance to not only a specific audience at one time but to varying audiences of different times?
                  • Matthew 7:24-27 24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”
                  Of course Jesus wanted us to know or debate meaning, but He also wanted us to apply Scripture to our lives.

                  Now if you asked your question to someone like David in his time he might throw up to you Psalm 22 which is referring to himself but the other application or significance of the passage refers to Christ on the cross.

                  Revelation uses an idea or phrase referring to a person, place, or event from an OT text. These simple allusions may be condensed or expanded, and are obviously applied to different historical situations, but these allusions most always carry over an essential focus of the OT text such that there is a clear continuity between the OT and the book of Revelation. For example, Babylon in the OT, which deceived and persecuted God's people, comes to be representative for the evil world system, which also deceives and persecuted God's people. And just as Israel was in exile in Babylon, so true Israel, the church, lives in exile in the Babylonian world system.

                  One final point to note concerns the way in which John takes OT references and universalizes them. What in the OT is applied to Israel is given a much wider sense by John. For instance, God gave Israel the title "kingdom of priests" Exodus 19:6, but John applies this to the worldwide church Rev. 1:6, 5:10. When Zech. 12:10 states that the tribes will mourn over him, the reference is to Israel, but John widens it to all the tribes of the earth Rev. 1:7.

                  Read more: Amillenialism & Revelation - Christforums
                  God bless,
                  William
                  Comment>

                    #24
                    Originally posted by William View Post

                    Are you confusing having one correct meaning with multiple applications or significance?
                    I don't believe so

                    Do you think Revelation has no other application/significance to anyone else in other time periods?
                    As I said in my Post, Pastorally yes, Prophetically no.

                    The Story of Noah and the Flood has Pastoral application to all peoples of all times, but had prophetic significance to Noah's generation Alone, otherwise, you and I WOULD be building arks, as would have all peoples of all generations if it had ongoing PROPHETIC significance.

                    Or does Revelation have application/significance to not only a specific audience at one time but to varying audiences of different times?
                    As with the Flood, Revelation has PASTORAL significance to all peoples of all times, but had prophetic significance to one generation alone.

                    Now if you asked your question to someone like David in his time he might throw up to you Psalm 22 which is referring to himself but the other application or significance of the passage refers to Christ on the cross.
                    Right.
                    And I hope you would agree that the Cross is the terminus, and that Christ's cross work was not simply a type or shadow of some future, greater sacrifice for sin, and future, greater application of Psalm 22.

                    The Apostles applied an "OT Type>Messianic Fulfillment" Hermeneutic.
                    OT Types found their terminus in Messianic fulfimment.

                    There is no scripture that teaches that the Messianic fulfillments are in turn a mere "type" of some future, greater sacrifice and redemptive plan that keeps happening over and over and over in a greater and greater way...
                    Comment>
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