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Daniel 2:43 The Iron and Clay

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  • Daniel 2:43 The Iron and Clay

    (considerations based on transhuman/"aliens" upswing in culture)

    While looking at the Daniel and the first dream of the statue that would represent the Empires (Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome and the mixture of Rome with clay) I'm confronted by this verse 2:43
    "As you saw the iron mixed with soft clay so they will mix with one another in marriage (1 Aramaic "by the seed of men") but they will not hold together just as iron does not mix with clay.

    Looking at this mixture of iron an clay it's best translated as they will try to mix with one another by the seed of men. Does anyone see any correlation of this verse to Genesis 6 around the flood, the wickedness and the Nephilim?
    6: 1-4
    "When man began to multiply on the face of the land and the daughters were born to them 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose. 3 Then the LORD said "My Spirit shall not abide in man forever, for he is flesh: his days shall be 120 years." 4 The Nehphilim were on the earth in those days and also afterward when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old the men of renown."

    Could there be another hybrid "tainting of seed" as found in Genesis being foretold here in Daniel?


  • #2
    Originally posted by Tuesday View Post
    (considerations based on transhuman/"aliens" upswing in culture)

    While looking at the Daniel and the first dream of the statue that would represent the Empires (Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome and the mixture of Rome with clay) I'm confronted by this verse 2:43
    "As you saw the iron mixed with soft clay so they will mix with one another in marriage (1 Aramaic "by the seed of men") but they will not hold together just as iron does not mix with clay.

    Looking at this mixture of iron an clay it's best translated as they will try to mix with one another by the seed of men. Does anyone see any correlation of this verse to Genesis 6 around the flood, the wickedness and the Nephilim?
    6: 1-4
    "When man began to multiply on the face of the land and the daughters were born to them 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose. 3 Then the LORD said "My Spirit shall not abide in man forever, for he is flesh: his days shall be 120 years." 4 The Nehphilim were on the earth in those days and also afterward when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old the men of renown."

    Could there be another hybrid "tainting of seed" as found in Genesis being foretold here in Daniel?
    G'day Tuesday,

    I don't believe so, and I wonder if you may be treading on dangerous grounds. Why I say "may be" give pause and think about this: Promotion of Kinism Banned from Christforums -Christforums and how your interpretation may deepen into something you didn't mean. I think "we" are called from every tribe tongue and nation. The below Reformed interpretation I think more plausible. Because we are in union in Christ and adopted as sons despite being from every tribe, tongue, and nation, I think a racial distinction where there is none may be understood in the "mixing of seed" which doesn't exists in Christ because we are all of one body.

    31 “You saw, O king, and behold, a great image. This image, mighty and of exceeding brightness, stood before you, and its appearance was frightening. 32 The head of this image was of fine gold, its chest and arms of silver, its middle and thighs of bronze, 33 its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of clay. 34 As you looked, a stone was cut out by no human hand, and it struck the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces. 35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold, all together were broken in pieces, and became like the chaff of the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away, so that not a trace of them could be found. But the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.

    36 “This was the dream. Now we will tell the king its interpretation. 37 You, O king, the king of kings, to whom the God of heaven has given the kingdom, the power, and the might, and the glory, 38 and into whose hand he has given, wherever they dwell, the children of man, the beasts of the field, and the birds of the heavens, making you rule over them all—you are the head of gold. 39 Another kingdom inferior to you shall arise after you, and yet a third kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over all the earth. 40 And there shall be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron, because iron breaks to pieces and shatters all things. And like iron that crushes, it shall break and crush all these. 41 And as you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter's clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom, but some of the firmness of iron shall be in it, just as you saw iron mixed with the soft clay. 42 And as the toes of the feet were partly iron and partly clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly brittle. 43 As you saw the iron mixed with soft clay, so they will mix with one another in marriage,[c] but they will not hold together, just as iron does not mix with clay. 44 And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever, 45 just as you saw that a stone was cut from a mountain by no human hand, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold. A great God has made known to the king what shall be after this. The dream is certain, and its interpretation sure.”
    The represented specific empires or dynasties, if it is to be assumed were not yet identified in light of Daniel 8:19-21, the chest and arms of silver represent the Medo Persian Empire views as a single entity embodied in the ascent of Cyrus in 539 BC Daniel 5:28;8:20. The belly and thigh of bronze would then symbolize the Greek Empire which would rule over the whole earth followed in turn by the Roman Empire.

    Just adding:

    The rock that crushes all of the kingdoms of this world is Christ Luke 20:18. He is the mystery of the ages, the One in whom God will unite all things in His glorious kingdom Ephesians 1:9-10. The elements of the fourth kingdom cannot preserve their union. One possible interpretation of the image is that the iron represents the culture and laws of imperial Rome, while the clay represents the divergent political and social traditions of its many parts. The fourth kingdom though strong, is as temporary as those the precede it and lacks the glory of the earlier kingdoms. - Reformed Study Bible
    This interpretation has often led to the understanding of the rock as Christ and its growth as a reference to the advance of the kingdom of God. There are many allusions to this interpretation in Luke 1:33; 20:18. It should however, also be noted that the stone shatters all of the kingdoms signified by the statue. In a more general sense, therefore, the message of the vision is that while the kingdoms people of the survival of the fittest, it is the hand of God that ultimately destroys them as he builds his own kingdom, one that will endure.

    God bless,
    William
    Comment>

    • #3
      Thank you for your response and the warning that I might be on dangerous ground and what that would be while also providing the link so I could better understand as I'd never heard of Kinism. There was nothing of Kinism meant within my post as I don't hold any Kinism belief.

      Just to clarify my terms for any misunderstanding:
      Transhuman- the movement by a growing group of people who want to merge with machine and technology in order to obtain a longer life span, super human ability and even immortality
      Alien- the little gray x-file kind to include abduction reports
      Both of these have become more prevalent in recent years especially as technology and the understanding of genetics and genetic code evolve

      It was a look at the potential manipulation of "seed" and if there was any correlation as science is growing more corrupt in human genetics and comments made by the Pope to accept and welcome "aliens" should they come to earth. That was all.


      Thank you for your valuable input on everything, I really do appreciate it.
      Apologies on my behalf for not clarifying my terms earlier.
      Comment>

      • #4
        Originally posted by Tuesday View Post
        Thank you for your response and the warning that I might be on dangerous ground and what that would be while also providing the link so I could better understand as I'd never heard of Kinism. There was nothing of Kinism meant within my post as I don't hold any Kinism belief.

        Just to clarify my terms for any misunderstanding:
        Transhuman- the movement by a growing group of people who want to merge with machine and technology in order to obtain a longer life span, super human ability and even immortality
        Alien- the little gray x-file kind to include abduction reports
        Both of these have become more prevalent in recent years especially as technology and the understanding of genetics and genetic code evolve

        It was a look at the potential manipulation of "seed" and if there was any correlation as science is growing more corrupt in human genetics and comments made by the Pope to accept and welcome "aliens" should they come to earth. That was all.


        Thank you for your valuable input on everything, I really do appreciate it.
        Apologies on my behalf for not clarifying my terms earlier.
        My apologies Tuesday, and thank you for the clarification.

        God bless,
        William
        Comment>

        • #5
          Originally posted by Tuesday View Post
          (considerations based on transhuman/"aliens" upswing in culture)

          While looking at the Daniel and the first dream of the statue that would represent the Empires (Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome and the mixture of Rome with clay) I'm confronted by this verse 2:43
          "As you saw the iron mixed with soft clay so they will mix with one another in marriage (1 Aramaic "by the seed of men") but they will not hold together just as iron does not mix with clay.

          Looking at this mixture of iron an clay it's best translated as they will try to mix with one another by the seed of men. Does anyone see any correlation of this verse to Genesis 6 around the flood, the wickedness and the Nephilim?
          6: 1-4
          "When man began to multiply on the face of the land and the daughters were born to them 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose. 3 Then the LORD said "My Spirit shall not abide in man forever, for he is flesh: his days shall be 120 years." 4 The Nehphilim were on the earth in those days and also afterward when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old the men of renown."

          Could there be another hybrid "tainting of seed" as found in Genesis being foretold here in Daniel?
          There does not appear to be any connection. None of the key words or phrases found in Gen. 6 are found here (i.e. sons of god, Nephilim etc.). The antecedent of the subjective pronoun "they" mostly likely points backs to the last kingdom mentioned referring to the kings of that empire or the people as a whole. The idea has to do with a lack of unity (at some point).
          Last edited by Origen; 10-13-2016, 06:05 AM.
          Comment>

          • #6
            Originally posted by Origen View Post
            There does not appear to be any connection. None of the key words or phrases found in Gen. passage are found here (i.e. son of god, Nephilim etc.). The antecedent of the subjective pronoun "they" mostly likely points backs to the last kingdom
            Thank you. Sometimes a verse will stand out and I reflect on it, pray and seek council. "They" (as in who are they) was the part that gave me pause. I've only been in study for a year so I really appreciate your response and good points to this. :)
            Comment>

            • #7
              No problem. Glad I could help.
              Comment>

              • #8
                And we actually have a fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy when royal intermarriage was used in an attempt to unify Europe: Royal intermarriage - Wikipedia
                In Europe, the practice was most prevalent from the medieval era until the outbreak of World War I . . . kinship by marriage could secure an alliance between two dynasties which sought to reduce the sense of threat from or to initiate aggression against the realm of a third dynasty.
                But as it was prophesied these royal intermarriages failed to unite what was once the Roman empire.
                Comment>

                • #9
                  What's going on here. The OP is asking if the Daniel Scripture about the iron not mixing with clay could be about another Gen.6 event like the Nephilim (fallen ones) when the "sons of God" took wives of the daughters of men, and the result were the Rephaim, the giants, hybrid humans of a huge stature that lived among the nations of Canaan that God told Israel to destroy.

                  Dan 2:43
                  43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
                  KJV

                  I realize some brethren think the idea of the angels ("sons of God") mating with the flesh daughters of men to produce a hybrid giant offspring too awful of an idea to consider, but maybe those think they're too good for God's Word as written?

                  We aren't to change God's Word as written in order to make It more palatable to our sensibilities, but accept It as written, regardless whether or not we understand something revealed in It yet.

                  Based on many newspaper reports of the past just in the Americas of the existence of multiple groups of human remains up to around 11 feet tall, and admitted by the Smithsonian inspectors who reviewed the burial sites, that's enough to convince me that what Genesis 6 declared about the existence of hybrids called giants, that it actually happened like God's Word says there as written:

                  Old News Articles: http://www.sydhav.no/giants/newspapers.htm

                  Based on that, could it mean that Daniel verse might be pointing to another irruption of that mating by the angels for the last days, and that involves that idea that "they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay"? I say yes, it's very probable that is exactly what it could be pointing to.

                  Of course, that would totally eliminate any such idea of 'aliens' though. It 's more likely the belief in the existence of extraterrestrials is more aligned with atheist's thinking who don't believe in God and the spiritual realm of the angels.

                  Another Biblical connection to this possible event for the last days if Rev.12:7 forward which declares Satan and his angels will be booted out of heaven down to this earth after the war with Archangel Michael. That Rev.12:7-17 section of Scripture reveals its timing is for the very end of this world, and was not history.
                  Comment>

                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Tuesday View Post
                    (considerations based on transhuman/"aliens" upswing in culture)

                    While looking at the Daniel and the first dream of the statue that would represent the Empires (Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome and the mixture of Rome with clay) I'm confronted by this verse 2:43
                    "As you saw the iron mixed with soft clay so they will mix with one another in marriage (1 Aramaic "by the seed of men") but they will not hold together just as iron does not mix with clay.

                    Looking at this mixture of iron an clay it's best translated as they will try to mix with one another by the seed of men. Does anyone see any correlation of this verse to Genesis 6 around the flood, the wickedness and the Nephilim?
                    6: 1-4
                    "When man began to multiply on the face of the land and the daughters were born to them 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose. 3 Then the LORD said "My Spirit shall not abide in man forever, for he is flesh: his days shall be 120 years." 4 The Nehphilim were on the earth in those days and also afterward when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old the men of renown."

                    Could there be another hybrid "tainting of seed" as found in Genesis being foretold here in Daniel?
                    The feet of iron and clay represent the Roman Catholic Church and the Vatican as the iron part of the feet and the Protestant churches as the clay part of the feet. The fourth Kingdom represents the Roman Empire who passed over their building codes to the Vatican so the Vatican became the rulers of the world for a thousand years and used the ten kingdoms "toes of iron and clay" ( now known as the European nations ) and their military power to go out and conquer the rest of the world.

                    On they day of the Lord which will happen very soon, everything on Earth will be destroyed by His Fire including all flesh of man. This will end Satan ( false prophet ) and the Beast.

                    Revelation 19
                    17: Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and with a loud voice he called to all the birds that fly in midheaven, "Come, gather for the great supper of God,
                    18: to eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all men, both free and slave, both small and great."
                    19: And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who sits upon the horse and against his army.
                    20: And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had worked the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulphur.
                    21: And the rest were slain by the sword of him who sits upon the horse, the sword that issues from his mouth; and all the birds were gorged with their flesh.
                    Comment>

                    • #11
                      Originally posted by bornofgod View Post
                      The feet of iron and clay represent the Roman Catholic Church and the Vatican as the iron part of the feet and the Protestant churches as the clay part of the feet. The fourth Kingdom represents the Roman Empire who passed over their building codes to the Vatican so the Vatican became the rulers of the world for a thousand years and used the ten kingdoms "toes of iron and clay" ( now known as the European nations ) and their military power to go out and conquer the rest of the world.
                      You really have no idea what you are talking about.
                      Last edited by Origen; 10-24-2016, 05:01 AM.
                      Comment>
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